Which Is Better For Two Parts

[Piranhapat]

Is there a better choice to use 3 types of Alkalinity. All in one product such as Sodium Bicarbonate and Sodium Carbonate and Soda Ash. Or just using a product with Sodium Bicarbonate or Sodium Carbonate / Soda Ash. Most don't list if added trace elements are added. ESV and Brightwell is one that has added trace elements. But nothing label on the bottle. If your dosing what Trace Elements should you be adding with the 2 parts if any?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The choices of alkalinity part of a two part are primarily pH issues.

Sodium bicarbonate has a tiny pH lowering effect when first added.

Sodium carbonate has a substantial pH raising effect when first added.
Sodium hydroxide has the highest pH raising effect possible when first added (about 2x the carbonate).

One can make mixtures of any of these, but I don't think that's generally worth the bother.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Forget the trace element issue as no two part replaces the need for a trace element supplement. That is not the purpose or intent.

Sophisticated two parts (like ESV) include all ions, from major to trace, to make sure that the method itself does not lower those due to salinity increases from the counterions (sodium and chloride). So they include things like sulfate, potassium, bromide, etc. The magnesium part of my DIY does that for magnesium and sulfate, but not many of the other ions.

I think that sophisticated approach is clearly a benefit, but folks who do regular water changes may not actually notice the effect when observing their tank.

 

[Piranhapat]

Thanks for explaining. I was just curious I heard from ACI that using soda ash can cause the sand to become very hard. Maybe has to do with chemical breaking with other icon or something else.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for explaining. I was just curious I heard from ACI that using soda ash can cause the sand to become very hard. Maybe has to do with chemical breaking with other icon or something else.

It has only to do with the resulting pH in the aquarium, not how you get there. Higher pH leads to more abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate, which can "harden" sand. So does higher alkalinity.

 

[Nerdist Aquarist]

Good to know the hardening of sand is the effect of high pH, and not directly a cause of soda ash. I just watched that video with ACI and was rethinking my use of soda ash.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Good to know the hardening of sand is the effect of high pH, and not directly a cause of soda ash. I just watched that video with ACI and was rethinking my use of soda ash.

Just an FYI, whether you dose bicarbonate, carbonate, hydroxide, or any mixture of any of these, they all end up being exactly the same in the tank water (a mix of bicarbonate and carbonate with the ratio between them depending on pH). Only the pH is different. These forms inter-convert many, many times a second in water, with the ratio depending only on the pH.

 

[Nerdist Aquarist]

Just an FYI, whether you dose bicarbonate, carbonate, hydroxide, or any mixture of any of these, they all end up being exactly the same in the tank water (a mix of bicarbonate and carbonate with the ratio between them depending on pH). Only the pH is different. These forms inter-convert many, many times a second in water, with the ratio depending only on the pH.

Randy, I have a side question if you don't mind. Right now I'm using the Balling method and my automated dosing varies throughout the day to target stable Alkalinity level as much as possible. I'm thinking of switching to different 2 part dosing and use soda ash as the alkalinity component, as I believe I can better target the pH levels over a 24 hour period. I know there is a relationship with alkalinity/pH, but do you think it's more beneficial to have stable pH versus a stable alkalinity, vice versa?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy, I have a side question if you don't mind. Right now I'm using the Balling method and my automated dosing varies throughout the day to target stable Alkalinity level as much as possible. I'm thinking of switching to different 2 part dosing and use soda ash as the alkalinity component, as I believe I can better target the pH levels over a 24 hour period. I know there is a relationship with alkalinity/pH, but do you think it's more beneficial to have stable pH versus a stable alkalinity, vice versa?

That's a more complicated question than most people think, who reflexively say don't chase pH without understanding what it really means to bicarbonate availability.

Someone with rock steady total alkalinity pegged to 8.00 dKH 24/7, but who has a pH swing from 7.9 to 8.3 is seeing a 20% change in bicarbonate concentration (which is what corals actually take up).

I'm not sure folks have adequately tested to say whether, in a given tank, it is more important to keep total alk stable, to keep bicarbonate stable, or to keep a very low pH from being quite so low.

That issue aside, IMO, if pH is dropping below pH 7.8, I would raise the low end of the pH. Otherwise, I might focus on alk stability.

 

[Piranhapat]

This is getting a little more complicating. Is it better to use three components say Bicarbonate 8-2 ratio with carbonate with soda ash. Than using just Bicarbonate and soda ash. Will there be a difference in less ph or Alkalinity

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This is getting a little more complicating. Is it better to use three components say Bicarbonate 8-2 ratio with carbonate with soda ash. Than using just Bicarbonate and soda ash. Will there be a difference in less ph or Alkalinity

IMO, there's no reason to use mixtures. Wasted complexity.

If you need a pH boost, use carbonate.

If you have excessive precipitation of calcium carbonate, or your pH is already high for other reasons, use bicarbonate.

if you really strongly need a pH boost, use hydroxide.

 

[KonradTO]

IMO, there's no reason to use mixtures. Wasted complexity.

If you need a pH boost, use carbonate.

If you have excessive precipitation of calcium carbonate, or your pH is already high for other reasons, use bicarbonate.

if you really strongly need a pH boost, use hydroxide.

sorry to revive an old thread, but I have a question related to this.
How long will last the pH boost effect of the mentioned solutions? we are talking about a couple of hours or days?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

sorry to revive an old thread, but I have a question related to this.
How long will last the pH boost effect of the mentioned solutions? we are talking about a couple of hours or days?

It depends entirely on the degree of aeration and the CO2 level in the air.

But for most tanks with skimmers, the effect lasts hours, not days. But since you dose daily, and maybe more frequently, you wouldn't want an effect to keep stacking day after day.

 

[KonradTO]

It depends entirely on the degree of aeration and the CO2 level in the air.

But for most tanks with skimmers, the effect lasts hours, not days. But since you dose daily, and maybe more frequently, you wouldn't want an effect to keep stacking day after day.

Thanks Randy. So basically if I get a +0.03 spike in pH after dosing with sodium carbonate, I will have around twice of that with hydroxide right? It is quite insignificant for the purpose of pH boosting itself for this amount of dosing.
My understanding is that the more sps you have, the more you dose, and therefore the more you will boost pH via dosing throughout the day right?
I have a funny situation where I battled with low pH for long time (7.6-7.8), and I could solve it only by increasing gas exchange with skimmer+airstone. Now I am sitting at around 8.0 with almost no fluctuations between day/night, which is fine, but still I wonder how some people manage to reach pH values like 8.6.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks Randy. So basically if I get a +0.03 spike in pH after dosing with sodium carbonate, I will have around twice of that with hydroxide right? It is quite insignificant for the purpose of pH boosting itself for this amount of dosing.
My understanding is that the more sps you have, the more you dose, and therefore the more you will boost pH via dosing throughout the day right?
I have a funny situation where I battled with low pH for long time (7.6-7.8), and I could solve it only by increasing gas exchange with skimmer+airstone. Now I am sitting at around 8.0 with almost no fluctuations between day/night, which is fine, but still I wonder how some people manage to reach pH values like 8.6.

Correct.

I used only kalkwasser for 20 years. My pH ran high generally becauase my old home was quite air leaky and the hydroxide dosing and photosynthesis boosted pH.

When my skimmer went off line due to a pump issue, I kept it off for a few weeks to see effects. The most notable one was a pH increase, and pH 8.55 was a typical peak during that time.

FWIW, I replace all evaporated water with limewater (kalkwasser), so was probably dosing about 2 dKH per day.

 

[KonradTO]

FWIW, I replace all evaporated water with limewater (kalkwasser), so was probably dosing about 2 dKH per day.

Yeah, I dose the same amount over a week or so .
I need to get some hardy sps to enjoy some of the alkalinity XD Maybe some montipora capricornis

At the moment I see fluctuations in the order of 0.05 pH right now, so the gas exchange should be almost optimal. pH is at 7.98 in the morning and 8.03 at the end of the day. Very weird because I expected the baseline value (without the effect of dosing) to be around 8.3 with the red sea salt.. I will double check that the probe is properly calibrated, but I am happy anyway, better than before for sure.