White spots on Royal Gramma

[Lukas11]

Situation: at 3 months (Fluval 57l), first pair of clownfish died of what looked like ich/broklynella in one (had both symptoms, couldn't react on time with QT). 6+ weeks fallow period + UV 24/7, and second pair of clowns is doing fine. 2 months later (now) i add Royal Gramma.

Parameters: KH 8.5, Mg 1450, Ca 420, Nitrates 5ppm, Salinity 35ppt, temp. 26C/78F. Rest of the parameters is unknown. Salt: Aquaforest Reef. Corals doing fine.

Problem: Royal Gramma, a day after I bought it, developed white spots on it's body (small, like glitter), most of them are on the tail, some on and near head. No unusual behaviour (no rubbing against the rocks; is a bit shy but eats). It is in the main tank, during acclimation didn't notice any signs of disease, and LFS has a good reputation. What can be the cause and should I be worried?

Best regards and many thanks in advance,
Lukas

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Situation: at 3 months (Fluval 57l), first pair of clownfish died of what looked like ich/broklynella in one (had both symptoms, couldn't react on time with QT). 6+ weeks fallow period + UV 24/7, and second pair of clowns is doing fine. 2 months later (now) i add Royal Gramma.

Parameters: KH 8.5, Mg 1450, Ca 420, Nitrates 5ppm, Salinity 35ppt, temp. 26C/78F. Rest of the parameters is unknown. Salt: Aquaforest Reef. Corals doing fine.

Problem: Royal Gramma, a day after I bought it, developed white spots on it's body (small, like glitter), most of them are on the tail, some on and near head. No unusual behaviour (no rubbing against the rocks; is a bit shy but eats). It is in the main tank, during acclimation didn't notice any signs of disease, and LFS has a good reputation. What can be the cause and should I be worried?

Best regards and many thanks in advance,
Lukas

That is marine ich, Cryptocaryon.
The best treatment for that is to move all fish to a treatment tank with fish only and treat with copper. The fish then need to stay out of the infected tank for 8 weeks or so.

Jay

 

[Lukas11]

Oh my god, not again... Is it possible it survived without manifesting in the tank, or is it almost certain Gramma brought it back from the shop?

I have Chloroquine Phosphate, I will buy tommorow a tank and begin treatment.
Just to confirm, I have tablets containing 250mg CP, but the tablet itself weighs 370mg. With 15mg/l dose it should be 22,2mg actual weight per liter? (370/250=1,48 ; 15x1,48=22,2mg)

Can I use UV along with CP?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Oh my god, not again... Is it possible it survived without manifesting in the tank, or is it almost certain Gramma brought it back from the shop?

I have Chloroquine Phosphate, I will buy tommorow a tank and begin treatment.
Just to confirm, I have tablets containing 250mg CP, but the tablet itself weighs 370mg. With 15mg/l dose it should be 22,2mg actual weight per liter? (370/250=1,48 ; 15x1,48=22,2mg)

Can I use UV along with CP?

Being that CP turns water into medicated water, I would run UV after CP treatment. Assure you dose at 10 mg/L (40-50 mg/gal) in a bare bottom QT tank for 10 days at 78-80F

 

[Sebastiancrab]

Suggest you purchase Hydroplex and give your fish a 10 minute saltwater dip. It will kill the bugs on them and it is low stress. As Jay recommended, you will still need to treat them all with copper.

 

[Lukas11]

Okay, I will dose 10mg/l CP (14,8mg/l tablet powder), throw in heater with thermostat and disable UV light in filter (pure mechanical, no biological filtration). I will also throw in some glass mugs for the fish to hide in.

I have only last question I know QT protocol is posted but can I use CP alternatively to it? (as it is quicker, cheaper and seems better for the fish)

Thank you very much guys for the diagnosis! I will post here any updates (hopefully positive).

 

[Lukas11]

Unfortunately I don't have copper on hand, and Hydroplex is not available here in Poland. The only thing I can proceed with quickly is Chloroquine.
There is a saying "mądry Polak po szkodzie" - "wise is the Pole after the damage is done (to him)". Guess I didn't learn the first time to QT, now I'm adamant to do it every time.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Oh my god, not again... Is it possible it survived without manifesting in the tank, or is it almost certain Gramma brought it back from the shop?

I have Chloroquine Phosphate, I will buy tommorow a tank and begin treatment.
Just to confirm, I have tablets containing 250mg CP, but the tablet itself weighs 370mg. With 15mg/l dose it should be 22,2mg actual weight per liter? (370/250=1,48 ; 15x1,48=22,2mg)

Can I use UV along with CP?

No - NEVER run UV with choroquine, it breaks that drug down and creates a chemical that won't be effective and may create toxic byproducts.

The additional weight in your chloroquine tablets are excipients/binders. Do you know the source of your drug? I can't tell you if these exciepients are safe for aquarium use.

The dose would be to use the value of 250 mg. You want to dose it at 10 to 20 mg/l . So, let's say you dose at 15 mg/l. Then, a 250 mg active dose tablet would treat 16.7 liters.

Here is a link to an article I wrote on chloroquine:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

Jay

 

[Lukas11]

No - NEVER run UV with choroquine, it breaks that drug down and creates a chemical that won't be effective and may create toxic byproducts.

The additional weight in your chloroquine tablets are excipients/binders. Do you know the source of your drug? I can't tell you if these exciepients are safe for aquarium use.

The dose would be to use the value of 250 mg. You want to dose it at 10 to 20 mg/l . So, let's say you dose at 15 mg/l. Then, a 250 mg active dose tablet would treat 16.7 liters.

Here is a link to an article I wrote on chloroquine:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

Jay

The drug is from pharmacy ("Arechin"; as side note it was very cheap, 5$ with prescription from veterinarian), and the additives stated on label are the: potato starch, gelatin, magnesium stearate, colloidal anhydrous silica. As far as my research goes, none of these seem to be toxic towards fish.

The only thing that confuses me, today Gramma shows no signs of white spots, he is clean. Is it possible to be...sand or maybe some skin damage, stress?
I have all the equipment ready, but can I wait for Cryptocaryon to remanifest itself, to confirm? Or is it common for it to just disappear and quietly kill the fish?

I know it would be safer to just treat all the fish, and go fallow for 8 weeks, but I'm reluctant to bulldoze my rocks to catch the little bugger; and also having second aquarium is a pain in the rear for person that will manage my aquarium(s) during my vacation in september.

Thank you for the valuable information and responses!

 

[Dburr1014]

The drug is from pharmacy ("Arechin"; as side note it was very cheap, 5$ with prescription from veterinarian), and the additives stated on label are the: potato starch, gelatin, magnesium stearate, colloidal anhydrous silica. As far as my research goes, none of these seem to be toxic towards fish.

The only thing that confuses me, today Gramma shows no signs of white spots, he is clean. Is it possible to be...sand or maybe some skin damage, stress?
I have all the equipment ready, but can I wait for Cryptocaryon to remanifest itself, to confirm? Or is it common for it to just disappear and quietly kill the fish?

I know it would be safer to just treat all the fish, and go fallow for 8 weeks, but I'm reluctant to bulldoze my rocks to catch the little bugger; and also having second aquarium is a pain in the rear for person that will manage my aquarium(s) during my vacation in september.

Thank you for the valuable information and responses!

This is how ich works. Spots drop off and go into substrate and multiply. The fish really needs to come out and tank needs to be fallow.
Use that qt for future fish or you will have to do this all over again.
It's a pain but it needs to be done.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

The drug is from pharmacy ("Arechin"; as side note it was very cheap, 5$ with prescription from veterinarian), and the additives stated on label are the: potato starch, gelatin, magnesium stearate, colloidal anhydrous silica. As far as my research goes, none of these seem to be toxic towards fish.

The only thing that confuses me, today Gramma shows no signs of white spots, he is clean. Is it possible to be...sand or maybe some skin damage, stress?
I have all the equipment ready, but can I wait for Cryptocaryon to remanifest itself, to confirm? Or is it common for it to just disappear and quietly kill the fish?

I know it would be safer to just treat all the fish, and go fallow for 8 weeks, but I'm reluctant to bulldoze my rocks to catch the little bugger; and also having second aquarium is a pain in the rear for person that will manage my aquarium(s) during my vacation in september.

Thank you for the valuable information and responses!

I would just wait a bit, but be prepared to treat. In the early stages, the ich trophonts tend to fall off the fish at the same time, making it look like the ich has goneaway, but then they release many new theronts and the disease comes back even worse.

Jay

 

[vaguelyreeflike]

Situation: at 3 months (Fluval 57l), first pair of clownfish died of what looked like ich/broklynella in one (had both symptoms, couldn't react on time with QT). 6+ weeks fallow period + UV 24/7, and second pair of clowns is doing fine. 2 months later (now) i add Royal Gramma.

Parameters: KH 8.5, Mg 1450, Ca 420, Nitrates 5ppm, Salinity 35ppt, temp. 26C/78F. Rest of the parameters is unknown. Salt: Aquaforest Reef. Corals doing fine.

Problem: Royal Gramma, a day after I bought it, developed white spots on it's body (small, like glitter), most of them are on the tail, some on and near head. No unusual behaviour (no rubbing against the rocks; is a bit shy but eats). It is in the main tank, during acclimation didn't notice any signs of disease, and LFS has a good reputation. What can be the cause and should I be worried?

Best regards and many thanks in advance,
Lukas

I would highly suggest just setting up a permanent QT/Hospital tank, try to source some copper to run therapeutic levels and QT all and any new fish for at least 3 weeks for preventative medication and/or observation. This is going to keep happening without being QTed before going into the tank, and no matter how good your LFS is it can be impossible to assure the fish are healthy when some diseases and parasites can take nearly a month to show up depending on conditions.

QT tanks are an amazing tool to prevent this type of headache from happening over and over again, from fish loss to having to tear up your entire scape to catch the sick one.

 

[Lukas11]

Hello, I would like to hopefully conclude this topic; I did not treat the Gramma, due to going on vacation with nobody that would handle dosing medicine and water changes. The white spots never returned, though weirdly my Clown got a cloudy eye (which he recovered from on his own rather quickly).

I do have fine AF sand and I think this is the only reasonable explanation as he was furiously digging (grains stuck to the fish).
On my polish forums people are adamant that the fish got stressed, and that every tank has Marine Ich all the time in it, and as the stress lowered, he recovered.
Doesn't make sense to me, but is there a chance, that I have Cryptocaryons lurking in the water without manifesting much or at all on the fish (I try to observe them during feeding)?

@vaguelyreeflike thank for the advice, for next fish I definitely will setup a QT, though it will be in my next reef tank; I think pair of clowns and Gramma is enough for the Fluval