Why all the talk about LUX?

[gus6464]

That's an interesting speculation. It's actually reverse of what I would expect. Generally PAR readings on LED's are higher comparatively when tuned to the same visual spectrum. So LED's look (to the naked eye) like they are putting out less light even when achieving the same PAR reading as a mh or T5. That's one reason why so many people burned up their corals when switching from mh to LED...they tried to match the output visually.

MH looks brither than LED because most MH bulbs have considerably more output in the green region than most people with LED set on their tanks. The PAR has nothing to do with it. You are definitely correct on your assessment of why people burned coral when they switched to LED from MH.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

You spit out random lux numbers that people need to get to and don't take into account their fixture or spectrum. For the Kessil AP700 you specifically said it has low lux numbers so the PAR must be low without having a single clue to what the spectral graph or conversion factor is of that light.

No I don't spit random numbers.
Do the math. Use all the constants from 14k mh to a mars Aqua

And really you need to question why kessil doesn't publish par graphs like other manufacturers.

Fwiw most of the manufacturers I did meter at 12 in came out at 30000 lux or 50,000 lux. I'll assume they follow the current science and led trend of delivering 300par or 500 par at the waters surface for those applications. Of satandatrd 18!to 24 in deep tanks.
Prosumer.

Fwiw my ai sol at 12in delivers 100,000 plus with the stock lenses. Look at Sanjays papers on that light.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Way to completely misrepresent the apogee immersion factor. The new sensor has a cover that is not clear like the old one so it requires a compensation factor when it's under water. In open air it does not require it. That is totally different than doing a bunch of different calculations per spectrum wavelength.

No I actually wasn't. I was saying seneye results are weird.
And in that thing you quoted me on I said don't use you phone as ameter cuz it isn't.

Look man we can debate this to death but the science still stands. The math works.
Some meters suck some don't some folks don't know how to use a par meter either Look at charts.

I'm pretty sure if knowing what I know now had I gotten a par meter before a lux meter I would have gotten a Lux meter anyway to compare. Because I know the limitations of both and it's a good scientific comparison that would reveal flaws in our fixtures.
I.e. Much Higher intensity to achieve the same par equals not a great light.

I've spoken to the guys designing lights and selling them here and they concur it's fairly linear . Sorry.

 

[gus6464]

No I don't spit random numbers.
Do the math. Use all the constants from 14k mh to a mars Aqua

And really you need to question why kessil doesn't publish par graphs like other manufacturers.

Fwiw most of the manufacturers I did meter at 12 in came out at 30000 lux or 50,000 lux. I'll assume they follow the current science and led trend of delivering 300par or 500 par at the waters surface for those applications. Of satandatrd 18!to 24 in deep tanks.
Prosumer.

Fwiw my ai sol at 12in delivers 100,000 plus with the stock lenses. Look at Sanjays papers on that light.

AI Sol uses a combination of 40 and 70 degree lenses. That's quite narrow compared to what manufacturers use today. You can't treat a narrow lens based LED to a wide one and you sure can't compare a lens based one to a reflector based one.

Have you seen the spectral chart of the AI Sol compared to the new Hydra HD? The Hydra has half the output of the Sol in the green region at 100%. Of course it's going to show less lux. Why are you comparing apples to oranges?

 

[justingraham]

Par fight!!!!

 

[justingraham]

Ok so if two people had the same light both 10 inches over a tank one with a lux meter and one with a par meter

Would we then be able to come up with a ratio for that light?

Would anything else be a variable?

What I'm trying to get at is say a third guy picked up the same light as the two people above would he be able to use a lux meter to set up their tank because he would be able to use the info from the guy with the par meter and the guy with a lux meter to get the desired par he wants?

In all honesty we are just going back and forth and I may be wrong but I think this is what the op was trying to get at.

Thanks Gus and salty for going back and forth on this as I have learned a lot.

 

[gus6464]

Ok so if two people had the same light both 10 inches over a tank one with a lux meter and one with a par meter

Would we then be able to come up with a ratio for that light?

Would anything else be a variable?

What I'm trying to get at is say a third guy picked up the same light as the two people above would he be able to use a lux meter to set up their tank because he would be able to use the info from the guy with the par meter and the guy with a lux meter to get the desired par he wants?

In all honesty we are just going back and forth and I may be wrong but I think this is what the op was trying to get at.

Thanks Gus and salty for going back and forth on this as I have learned a lot.

You forgot the spectrum. The spectrum setting would also have to match.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

AI Sol uses a combination of 40 and 70 degree lenses. That's quite narrow compared to what manufacturers use today. You can't treat a narrow lens based LED to a wide one and you sure can't compare a lens based one to a reflector based one.

Have you seen the spectral chart of the AI Sol compared to the new Hydra HD? The Hydra has half the output of the Sol in the green region at 100%. Of course it's going to show less lux. Why are you comparing apples to oranges?

Yea. That's why I pulled more than half of the lenses left a few of 40 s and mounted it at only nine inches. Got better more even spread over the tank and still have plenty of intensity left.
By metering dry I ascertained the fixtures fall off at depth. It's actually how I decided to Putnam lenses back in. I lost a bit too much for my liking and added the wider lenses to cover the area at the bottom of the tank evenly

I should tell you if you don't know I have been working in lighting for several decades now.
Some of my reflectors are 48in some lensed some not. Some metallic polished or brushed some soft white. It was fashionable for some time in the mid 90's to use black bodies to maintain the distinct character of the arc light bulb. This naturally changed the quality of the light and its falloff. I'm sure you know what a fresnel is it's the most commonly used with a reflector type lamp but we also use lamps similar to a kessil in design and application. They were invented in the 1940s. I do enjoy that ours have lens choices from ten to 90 degrees.
Predominantly now we have about six distinct types of led optic choices. Big Fresnel now finally in the last two years. In the last six years the transition to led has been pretty rough but the evolution has been interesting to watch
But now mostly narrowly mixed lenses and then heavily diffused is the overall choice. Large fresnells are still tricky to do but we're seeing much more success as reallyreally large emitters are becoming much More reliable.
Nothing is as good as an arc btw. Or as romantic.

And why? Because I like fruit.

 

[justingraham]

You forgot the spectrum. The spectrum setting would also have to match.

Please explain as I'm a little lost on this.
If everything is the same settings what hoe could the spectrum change?

 

[donnievaz]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot: How do you physically take measurements with an iPhone and LUX app? Point it at the waters surface or at the light itself? Hold it just above the water?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Ok so if two people had the same light both 10 inches over a tank one with a lux meter and one with a par meter

Would we then be able to come up with a ratio for that light?

Would anything else be a variable?

What I'm trying to get at is say a third guy picked up the same light as the two people above would he be able to use a lux meter to set up their tank because he would be able to use the info from the guy with the par meter and the guy with a lux meter to get the desired par he wants?

In all honesty we are just going back and forth and I may be wrong but I think this is what the op was trying to get at.

Thanks Gus and salty for going back and forth on this as I have learned a lot.

In theory yes but only in a black room. As you put the par sensor in the tank the par readings will change based on the color of sand and rock. And thats ok that's something we need to keep in mind as we place coral.
Look at par maps on google images and you'll see this.
Also a reason to know the par and lux at the top.
It would also be easier if the light were a two Chanel.
And if the third guy hung the light higher or lower cuz his wife hates being blinded we would still have the same par measured at the top of the tank

So now
If you got his six Chanel ratio but but hung it very high or low , you could increase the overall intensity evenly to achieve the same matching par at the top of the tank

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot: How do you physically take measurements with an iPhone and LUX app? Point it at the waters surface or at the light itself? Hold it just above the water?

The light at the waters surface. There no stupid questions when your learning something for the first time.

Try this first. Use a light bulb or the kitchen and outside first to practice. Then the tank.
If you point it at an object will probably get a reading too but that is the reflected light you are reading.

 

[Bilal AL-jumaili]

Hello
I have a visit to the United States in December
Is there an exhibition or special festival reef tanks except for this period
With Regards

 

[Breadman03]

Hello
I have a visit to the United States in December
Is there an exhibition or special festival reef tanks except for this period
With Regards

The US is very large. I took 15 days on a cross country trip and barely got to see anything in depth.

What state or states do you plan on visiting?

 

[reefwiser]

The problem that I have always found when people discuss lighting. Is we are using our human eye's to make judgement on what corals need. People jack around with the colors on their LED's so that "they can see" the corals colors. Not worrying how this effects the coral. I used a lux meter in the 80's and 90's to check how much light T12 bulbs put out and if they need to be changed out. Then picked up a par meter when they be came Affordable. I will be a spectrograph Once they get into acceptable price range. I use one at work when calibrating color testing sensors.
Our eyes are no where near able to "see" what corals need. I use 30 years of learning and still make mistakes. It's always a learning process.

 

[NCreefguy]

I used a lux meter in the 80's and 90's to check how much light T12 bulbs put out and if they need to be changed out.

I still use T12s

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I still use T12s

Nice! Where do you get them. Stock pile?
It was before my reefing time. What color are they?

 

[reefwiser]

We still use T12's HO in some rooms at my plant just. Just replaced some yesterday.

 

[NCreefguy]

Nice! Where do you get them. Stock pile?
It was before my reefing time. What color are they?

Yeah I've had these put back for a looong time. Bought two boxes of them back in the day. Super Actinic

 

[NCreefguy]

I haven't looked into the T5s yet but I did wonder if they were better than the T12s. These bulbs are 72" 160w each