Why am I failing?

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

holy cow, did I really count 11 fish in a 40 gallon? Thats an incredible bioload for such a tiny tank, I cant imagine that such a small tank can be stable with so many fish in there. The canister filter and green hair algae just adds to the instability.

 

[Noxsolaris]

Not sure I follow as I've got 5kg of biomedia in the canister that's almost 2 years old. It's just the pre-filter section (similar to a filter sock being separate from a biomedia section in a sump) that is regularly changed.

gotcha. Must have read your previous post incorrectly. Don’t mind me. Haven’t finished my coffee yet. Lol

 

[dk2nt9]

This is for the main post:

Consuming reefkeeping related information vs. tracking issues you are experiencing

Each of them shows one sided story, what they want to show, not everything what it is about. Arguing with their reasoning in your mind is not helping. Try to track issues that you observe in your tank at R2R Reef Chemistry section, by using search, most likely it is already there.

What is going in your tank, actually

- Did you test every new batch of salt or no.

- Lack of alkalinity consumption could be because of another factor is a bottleneck, stopping a lot of processes from going on. Search Reef Chemistry for zero nitrates and phophates and dinos.They should be out-competed by other microorganisms with NO3 ~10 ppm and PO4 ~ 0.1 ppm. If competition is lacking, try introducing it, as Dr. Tim's treatments or AlgaeBarn's Ocean Magic.

- There are no hobbyists tests for bacterial, protozoan, viral diseases and unhealthy environment because of this. You have to observe, track issues by clinical signs and do treatment. Unfortunately, it may have to start with making the whole system healthier, using your feeling as a test for it. Possibilities could be: bad batch of salt, general disbalance, calibration issues, this can be found out easily, too much DOC (dissolve organic carbon), DON (..nitrogen), ending with facilitating one kind of bacterial growth vs another or in general too much of them, as it happens in unsanitary conditions for humans, no offense meant. You can find research articles and hobbyists versions of this.

- Dinos have to be dealt with, removed, use fresh and frequently changed carbon for toxins, and actual treatments.

From what you described, there is more than there are tests for it. Light shouldn't be an life threatening issue for most LPS and soft corals. Nor lack of skimmer or your system. Do not add too much organics to the tank, sitting there, decaying, feeding not the kind of bacteria you want to have there, smothering everything else. Dose what it is lacking. Canister filter, well, try to smell it, if it didn't become a cesspool for a lot of unhealthy microorganisms. Given a choice, I would rather use micron socks, changed frequently, than a canister filter. At least you can see what is going on there and do something about it.

Next will be not helping main tank directly: setting a small, really small new system, as cheap as possible, almost no harware, no canister filter, cycle, feed it, add phosphates and nitrates if it lacks them, biodiversity, maintained by feeding. Quite possible that it will be healthy, giving ideas that the same could be done in a main tank.

I wouldn't add more corals until the system stabilizes and becomes healthy. If you need test organisms, one snail and one head coral frag are enough.

 

[Duncan62]

Lighting and water flow are big essentials
You started with all dry rock and no form of bacteria and biodiversity
You will want to add 1,5ml if liquid bacteria such as micro bacter XLM per 10 gallons daily for 2 weeks
What test kits are you using? Some are reliable while others deliver false readings
Are you using RODI water or tap water from the faucet?
Are you quarantining livestock?
Are you acclimating livestock?

How much flow? I missed your wave makers or powerheads. Do you harvest macro regularly?

 

[chris_pull]

Just wondering... have you considered moving those two MP10s to opposite ends, so they push across the tank and collide in the middle, so you get more random movement? Seems like with everything on the back, all the flow would be one directional from back to front. Varying intensity, but still the same direction. If the pumps are across from each other, you'd get more random patterns, which corals seem to like. Ever time I've had too much flow in just one directions, corals seem to suffer.

Thanks, I actually did just this about two weeks ago! It's definitely improved flow and helped with the dinos on the sand in the front of thank. I also think it looks much better!

 

[chris_pull]

Doesn’t seem filtration or PH is your issue. At some point there are too many variables to contend with in identifying the issue. I’m not a knee jerk reaction kind of guy but I’m also not one to keep banging my head against a wall hoping at some point it works. Might want to consider preparing 100% replacement water matching PH, alk, calcium, mag, temp and salinity. Drain quickly and replace. Do maintenance on all mechanical filtration and start fresh. However, if something in the tank is leeching and why it is causing issues then this will be temporary. I’d however perform another ICP with the old water. This temporary reprieve might then provide time to fix the issue.

Reef Man found a rusting pump which he discovered too late and for the most part wiped his tank out.

Caveat, ICP tests aren’t perfect. There could be errors in what it displays.

Last I’d do is keep adding life until what’s causing problems is resolved.

A good idea, something I'll definitely consider. And yes, I think one of the issue is too many variables, so hard to narrow down.

I forgot to mention a critical piece of information – my ATO sensor cracked some months ago and the magnet inside was rusting. I ran some cuprisorb to be safe and the ICP didn't find any copper.

 

[chris_pull]

No clue how nutrients would bottom out with that many fish in a small tank

I actually added more because they were bottoming out. It might sound like a lot but all the fish are pretty small and the rock work provides lots of hiding space; sometimes you look at the tank and can't see a single fish. That said, I am looking rehome the chromis.

 

[chris_pull]

How much flow? I missed your wave makers or powerheads. Do you harvest macro regularly?

2 x MP10 on the sides of the tank (recently moved from back) at 40% reef crest mode. I harvest cheato every 2-3 weeks I think but I need to be more consistent with it.

 

[chris_pull]

holy cow, did I really count 11 fish in a 40 gallon? Thats an incredible bioload for such a tiny tank, I cant imagine that such a small tank can be stable with so many fish in there. The canister filter and green hair algae just adds to the instability.

Hmmm...I hadn't really considered it a lot compared to other tanks I see, the majority of the fish are tiny little things and the rock scape is such they all have areas to hide. You can look at the tank sometimes and not see a single fish! I think I added more early on as a solution to preventing nutrients bottoming out. But that said, perhaps it is too many. I can definitely rehome the chromis and Midas blenny.

 

[Duncan62]

2 x MP10 on the sides of the tank (recently moved from back) at 40% reef crest mode. I harvest cheato every 2-3 weeks I think but I need to be more consistent with it.

Agreed. Weekly at least. Good luck.

 

[GARRIGA]

A good idea, something I'll definitely consider. And yes, I think one of the issue is too many variables, so hard to narrow down.

I forgot to mention a critical piece of information – my ATO sensor cracked some months ago and the magnet inside was rusting. I ran some cuprisorb to be safe and the ICP didn't find any copper.

Damage might have already occurred. Assuming ICP post cuprisorb.

 

[ReefGeezer]

As I look at your filtration set up, it appears that it is driven solely by the canister filter's pump. There is a lot of head pressure produced by all those in-line mechanisms. How many gallons per hour is this system actually producing?

 

[chris_pull]

As I look at your filtration set up, it appears that it is driven solely by the canister filter's pump. There is a lot of head pressure produced by all those in-line mechanisms. How many gallons per hour is this system actually producing?

I keep meaning to test but it's not insignificant – without the MP10s on the flow from the outlet is enough to still push water all around the tank and to have the corals moving. The canister is rated for a 350 litre tank and I intentionally oversized it. Next time I do a water change I'll check.

 

[Chrisv.]

Hmmm...I hadn't really considered it a lot compared to other tanks I see, the majority of the fish are tiny little things and the rock scape is such they all have areas to hide. You can look at the tank sometimes and not see a single fish! I think I added more early on as a solution to preventing nutrients bottoming out. But that said, perhaps it is too many. I can definitely rehome the chromis and Midas blenny.

If your no3 and po4 are not going crazy, then the fish issues that will arise are from aggression and overcrowding, not things that will cause a protracted algae issue-- unless of course the algae /dinos are eating all the micronutrients they can and what you have left is 10 ppm no3 and .1 po4.

 

[GARRIGA]

Something to consider on filtration and use of canister as a means to an end. From my research and experience, contact time is the main driver and not amount of flow. That can be provided by two means. Volume of media and flow. Slower the flow the more contact time that volume of media has to decompose the detritus and if there’s enough media then nitrification could remove dissolved oxygen and create an anoxic zone for denitrification to occur.

Manufacturers have promoted tank turnover as a means of comparing one filter to another yet its been my experience that’s not the best approach. Why lowly undergravel filters are so effective and why a canister becomes more efficient as it clogs and flow reduces allowing greater contact time. Biggest issue with either is constantly maintaining them and thinking that brown muck is bad when in reality it’s just mulm from the decomposition process. Left on its own over time it too will break down through mineralization and release calcium and magnesium along with other trace elements that were bound in the feed. Why feeding is more important than constant cleaning. What goes in is controlled by us. Best make that quality ingredients.

 

[chris_pull]

Something to consider on filtration and use of canister as a means to an end. From my research and experience, contact time is the main driver and not amount of flow. That can be provided by two means. Volume of media and flow. Slower the flow the more contact time that volume of media has to decompose the detritus and if there’s enough media then nitrification could remove dissolved oxygen and create an anoxic zone for denitrification to occur.

Manufacturers have promoted tank turnover as a means of comparing one filter to another yet its been my experience that’s not the best approach. Why lowly undergravel filters are so effective and why a canister becomes more efficient as it clogs and flow reduces allowing greater contact time. Biggest issue with either is constantly maintaining them and thinking that brown muck is bad when in reality it’s just mulm from the decomposition process. Left on its own over time it to will break down through mineralization and release calcium and magnesium along with other trace elements that were bound in the feed. Why feeding is more important than constant cleaning. What does in is controlled by us. Best make that quality ingredients.

I tend to agree and this is why I wasn't too worried about a reduction in flow with the added in-line components. I also don't really clean the biomedia section; when I do open it it's relatively clean anyway and contains lots of sponges and feather dusters etc.

 

[Chrisv.]

Have you tried following the Dr. Tim's dino treatment protocol? This, along with bumping the temp to 81.5 worked extremely well for me. Like you, I run skimmerless. Make sure you have an air stone while you're doing the dino treatment, because you run a serious risk of the tank going down to low dissolved O2.

When I did the blackout, I completely sealed my tank from light using aluminum foil.

 

[GARRIGA]

I tend to agree and this is why I wasn't too worried about a reduction in flow with the added in-line components. I also don't really clean the biomedia section; when I do open it it's relatively clean anyway and contains lots of sponges and feather dusters etc.

I'd consider running two canisters. One strictly for decomposition and that I'd never open and the other smaller with more flow for polishing and chemical filtration such as carbon or running cuprizorb where more flow does help. Leave wave makers to provide the necessary flow inhabitants require based on need. Fact is that for my upcoming DT, I'm considering the use of an FX6 with an external DC pump so I can reduce the flow as needed and a Fluval 407 for polishing and chemical filtration. Alternatively, could run a manifold to split the water between two canisters and use just the one pump with gate valves to regulate flow on each.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I'd consider running two canisters. One strictly for decomposition and that I'd never open and the other smaller with more flow for polishing and chemical filtration such as carbon or running cuprizorb where more flow does help. Leave wave makers to provide the necessary flow inhabitants require based on need. Fact is that for my upcoming DT, I'm considering the use of an FX6 with an external DC pump so I can reduce the flow as needed and a Fluval 407 for polishing and chemical filtration. Alternatively, could run a manifold to split the water between two canisters and use just the one pump with gate valves to regulate flow on each.

In my experience, encouraging decomposition in a low oxygen environment is not a good idea. See fermentation or putrefication. Stinky processes, thanks to methane, result.

 

[GARRIGA]

In my experience, encouraging decomposition in a low oxygen environment is not a good idea. See fermentation or putrefication. Stinky processes, thanks to methane, result.

Understand the concerns of methane but is it an issue in our small application? Being it's naturally being produced then there's no smell that would allow detection. Commercial methane is laced with a rotten egg smell similar to sulfur for home leak detection. What I'm doing would only produce that if I was producing sulfur at large enough volume which apparently I'm not.

Will say this much. Did this in the 80s and 90s as well as my new experiment and I've never had any foul odors from my tanks and all three times have been via different filtration approaches. Should I really be concerned?