Why are reef tanks not more popular?

[sarcophytonIndy]

LFS are too predatory IMO.

Just one example: Hobbyists should not have to QT fish from an LFS. The LFS has an obligation to sell you something that isn't going to crash your tank. Stop apologizing for them and making up excuses, "ThHaT wOuLd Be impOsSiblE" Figure it out, you run the store! Not me.

When people accept, jusifty, and apologize for poor business practices it's gonna be bad news for a hobby.

That's why there is only one LFS that I buy from. It is the only one I trust. Others may be cheaper, but....

 

[dvgyfresh]

LFS are too predatory IMO.

Just one example: Hobbyists should not have to QT fish from an LFS. The LFS has an obligation to sell you something that isn't going to crash your tank. Stop apologizing for them and making up excuses, "ThHaT wOuLd Be impOsSiblE" Figure it out, you run the store! Not me.

When people accept, jusifty, and apologize for poor business practices it's gonna be bad news for a hobby.

Lol when I was getting into freshwater PetSmart sold me a red devil chichilid and goldfish for tank mates, my girlfriend wasn’t happy to wake up to a massacre..

Also every time I buy macro algae from lfs it contains vermitid snails, aptasia, bubble algae, ect

A lot of barriers to maintain a reef tank and even more barriers to start one up

 

[ReeferLou]

I was in the hobby back from 2000 to 2008, had kids, now jumped back in 2019. I am impressed at the new tech like LED lights and additives, controllers (reefpi) and information (like reef2reef and facebook groups) and web services for livestock. It definitely lowered the barriers and cost to allow more people to enjoy the reefs in their homes. Some would say the corals never had it so good

 

[Biokabe]

LFS are too predatory IMO.

Just one example: Hobbyists should not have to QT fish from an LFS. The LFS has an obligation to sell you something that isn't going to crash your tank. Stop apologizing for them and making up excuses, "ThHaT wOuLd Be impOsSiblE" Figure it out, you run the store! Not me.

When people accept, jusifty, and apologize for poor business practices it's gonna be bad news for a hobby.

I really have to disagree with you here. I don't think the predatory-ness of LFS has anything to do with why reef tanks aren't more popular.

That aside: Fish stores are responding to what the market demands. The reason they don't QT is because customers have told them, repeatedly, "What we want are cheap prices." We haven't told them that explicitly, of course - if you talk to any aquarist, they'll claim that what they want is properly QT'ed livestock that is guaranteed to survive and not crash the tank immediately. Then they'll turn around and buy the $20 wild-caught mandarin that just got off the plane that day instead of the $100 captive-bred mandarin that has been trained to take prepared and frozen foods. We may say one thing, but when our actions don't match our words, retailers who want to remain as retailers have to follow our actions.

That used to be the way with dogs, cats, etc., but as those pets are cuter, cuddlier, more available, and don't need to live in a glass box, they get far more public pressure. And that public pressure translated into government regulations mandating that retailers act a certain way when stocking and selling furry companions.

We're all very quick to blame retailers and act like they're the villains, but ultimately they're just giving us what our behavior demonstrates we want. If you want retailers to act differently, don't make forum posts casting them as villains - use your wallet to reward those who act the way you want them to, and convince your friends to do the same.

 

[Frogspon]

I really have to disagree with you here. I don't think the predatory-ness of LFS has anything to do with why reef tanks aren't more popular.

That aside: Fish stores are responding to what the market demands. The reason they don't QT is because customers have told them, repeatedly, "What we want are cheap prices." We haven't told them that explicitly, of course - if you talk to any aquarist, they'll claim that what they want is properly QT'ed livestock that is guaranteed to survive and not crash the tank immediately. Then they'll turn around and buy the $20 wild-caught mandarin that just got off the plane that day instead of the $100 captive-bred mandarin that has been trained to take prepared and frozen foods. We may say one thing, but when our actions don't match our words, retailers who want to remain as retailers have to follow our actions.

That used to be the way with dogs, cats, etc., but as those pets are cuter, cuddlier, more available, and don't need to live in a glass box, they get far more public pressure. And that public pressure translated into government regulations mandating that retailers act a certain way when stocking and selling furry companions.

We're all very quick to blame retailers and act like they're the villains, but ultimately they're just giving us what our behavior demonstrates we want. If you want retailers to act differently, don't make forum posts casting them as villains - use your wallet to reward those who act the way you want them to, and convince your friends to do the same.

I would say the LFS has a big part. Less people stick around because of shady experiences with their LFS so less people are branched out to.

The LFS has no obligation to QT fish because they only offer guarantees on fish for something ridiculous like 24 hours. If the fish dies in their store they won't even have to pay the vendor for it. They literally have 0 reason to waste money on meds and trying to nurse any fish to health before selling.

 

[Skibum]

I think mostly because it requires patience. You can't grow a nice acro colony in 2 days. So, if you're willing to wait 3-5 years to get your tank looking like a TOTM... Most people don't have that kind of attention span. There is a point where you're in cruise control with your tank. Everything is automated (From your habits to your reef computer). But... that itself takes time to get to, and you need to gain experience points along the way. I don't believe it's a money issue for all. People spend money on all sorts of unnecessary stuff. You think this hobby is expensive... man there are LOTS of hobbies that make this hobby look like collecting bottle caps.

JM2C

 

[sarcophytonIndy]

I agree, I don't think its money. Its time, patience, passion (some call this reef addiction), stable living situation.

 

[jesspal]

People don't have the patience nowadays to care for a reef aquarium. Instant gratification is the expectation and if they can not receive instant gratification they will not get involved.

 

[Dom]

We are a society of instant gratification. People see a nice reef tank and instantly decide they want one without researching them.

It isn't until after they make the purchase that they discover the level of work involved. They encounter disease in their rush to get a tank up and running because they skip critical steps like quarantine.

Experiences such as this leave people with a bad taste in their mouth after they take their first bite of the hobby. Then they usually give up.

People want the results, but, they don't want to put in the work.

 

[Pntbll687]

I would say the LFS has a big part. Less people stick around because of shady experiences with their LFS so less people are branched out to.

The LFS has no obligation to QT fish because they only offer guarantees on fish for something ridiculous like 24 hours. If the fish dies in their store they won't even have to pay the vendor for it. They literally have 0 reason to waste money on meds and trying to nurse any fish to health before selling.

If you think vendors are taking responsibility for fish more than a couple hours after delivery, I have a bridge to sell you. I'm sure there are live animal vendors that work very closely with LFS and offer some sort of credit, but this is the exception and not the rule. I'm sure any LFS that has been around picks and chooses their battles with vendors on credits for live animals. If 3 clownfish die 4 days after delivery, that's going to be eaten by the store, but if 3 yellow tangs die overnight, the vendor will get a call ASAP about it.

Now back on topic.

I think the hobby is poised to grow even more with Covid-19 lasting longer and longer. People are home and want things to do. But there's a couple things standing in the way

1) supply of glass is very limited right now. Yes, you can go to a custom builder or contact someone like Planet/Custom aquariums who actually build their tanks and have a tank in a few weeks. The issue is walking into an LFS and being able to buy a 75g/90/125 ect right now. There are people that poopoo on Aqueon and Perfecto all the time BUT I would say these two brands make up 90% of first tanks across the board. Heck, I even bought a 180g peninsula from aqueon.

2) There is not a great option in between black boxes and top tier lights. There needs to be a vendor out there who can source a decent light that retails for $250 that can light a 60g cube mixed reef. I used marineland "reef" lights for 5yrs and grew lps and montipora great, I had to switch it up because they were starting to burn through power supplies and I didn't want to chance a fire. I actually went with used metal halides, simply because I couldn't bite the bullet and spend upwards of $1500 on lights.

3) What people see online doesn't match up with their experiences. R2R is a great place for info and getting inspiration, but we get a pretty skewed view of the reefing scene. There are lots of RedSea/Waterbox/Custom builds going on and these are AWESOME to follow, but there are probably 100x more reefers out there trying to make it with a 40 breeder, hang on back filter, and black box lights. People who are exposed to reef tanks before they even buy a tank can be put off by the perceived cost.

4) The number of "bad" LFS outweigh the number of good ones. At the end of the day, the LFS is there to make money, and to sell product. If a customer is dead set on getting that hippo tang for a 75g tank, most LFS will sell it to them. The good ones will sell it, but with the info that it WILL outgrow the tank quickly and be prepared to bring it back or trade it to someone. Ryan from BRS even talked about the "snake oil" that used to be sold as super buffer deluxe, and it was just sodium bicarbonate or soda ash. It took him YEARS to get over that and trust other companies. That is how many, many, MANY people feel when the LFS is "selling to close" on items instead of "selling to inform".

 

[sarcophytonIndy]

Also, when you say LFS, I think you really have to differentiate between chains and sole proprietors, as they are drastically different.

 

[Frogspon]

If you think vendors are taking responsibility for fish more than a couple hours after delivery, I have a bridge to sell you. I'm sure there are live animal vendors that work very closely with LFS and offer some sort of credit, but this is the exception and not the rule. I'm sure any LFS that has been around picks and chooses their battles with vendors on credits for live animals. If 3 clownfish die 4 days after delivery, that's going to be eaten by the store, but if 3 yellow tangs die overnight, the vendor will get a call ASAP about it.

Now back on topic.

I think the hobby is poised to grow even more with Covid-19 lasting longer and longer. People are home and want things to do. But there's a couple things standing in the way

1) supply of glass is very limited right now. Yes, you can go to a custom builder or contact someone like Planet/Custom aquariums who actually build their tanks and have a tank in a few weeks. The issue is walking into an LFS and being able to buy a 75g/90/125 ect right now. There are people that poopoo on Aqueon and Perfecto all the time BUT I would say these two brands make up 90% of first tanks across the board. Heck, I even bought a 180g peninsula from aqueon.

2) There is not a great option in between black boxes and top tier lights. There needs to be a vendor out there who can source a decent light that retails for $250 that can light a 60g cube mixed reef. I used marineland "reef" lights for 5yrs and grew lps and montipora great, I had to switch it up because they were starting to burn through power supplies and I didn't want to chance a fire. I actually went with used metal halides, simply because I couldn't bite the bullet and spend upwards of $1500 on lights.

3) What people see online doesn't match up with their experiences. R2R is a great place for info and getting inspiration, but we get a pretty skewed view of the reefing scene. There are lots of RedSea/Waterbox/Custom builds going on and these are AWESOME to follow, but there are probably 100x more reefers out there trying to make it with a 40 breeder, hang on back filter, and black box lights. People who are exposed to reef tanks before they even buy a tank can be put off by the perceived cost.

4) The number of "bad" LFS outweigh the number of good ones. At the end of the day, the LFS is there to make money, and to sell product. If a customer is dead set on getting that hippo tang for a 75g tank, most LFS will sell it to them. The good ones will sell it, but with the info that it WILL outgrow the tank quickly and be prepared to bring it back or trade it to someone. Ryan from BRS even talked about the "snake oil" that used to be sold as super buffer deluxe, and it was just sodium bicarbonate or soda ash. It took him YEARS to get over that and trust other companies. That is how many, many, MANY people feel when the LFS is "selling to close" on items instead of "selling to inform".

Well, have I got a bridge to sell you. Depending on how business savvy the retailer is, CC's are on file with wholesalers and retailers are not billed for shipments until 90 days after receipt. Any fish that die within that period are not debited from the account

Many of the fish or coral you buy might not have even been paid for yet by the LFS. It's business structures like this that allow them to operate in ways that do not help the hobby.

 

[Pntbll687]

Well, have I got a bridge to sell you. Depending on how business savvy the retailer is, CC's are on file with wholesalers and retailers are not billed for shipments until 90 days after receipt. Any fish that die within that period are not debited from the account

Many of the fish or coral you buy might not have even been paid for yet by the LFS. It's business structures like this that allow them to operate in ways that do not help the hobby.

This is insane to me. That's essentially a 3 month guarantee on a fish.

I work in distribution in the dry goods side, tanks/stands/food ect, and many of my customers have terms of 60+ days to pay so I understand that. But if someone orders a product it ships and they get it, they can't turn around 80 days later and say it was damaged and demand credit.

That may be how some wholesalers operate, but I still find it very hard to believe that is the standard across the board.

 

[Jon Warner]

Being in the business side of things... for 30+ years...

I've found the hobby does a 90% refresh every 5 years. Take a sampling of 100 reefers and in 5 years, 10 will still be doing it. 90 are new or new-ish

And re: LFS being predatory... I can tell you with 100% confidence... even before C19, the vast majority of stores struggle to break even each month. There might be 30 LFS in the country where the owner's looking to buy a new bass boat that year. And those that DO make $$, they usually lose money on their store front and make up for it on Custom Installs and Maintenance.

It's a REALLY hard business.

In the modern history of reefing... I'd say that around <20 entrepreneurs have become millionaires in the business.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of maybe 10 companies that have sold for more than $1M.

 

[attiland]

Let’s see why I don’t want a dog?
- it stinks
- it’s messy
- it’s time consuming
- lots of maintenance aka grooming and walking
- requires knowledge
- it’s expensive (food / vet)
But it’s rewarding and culturally more expected than any other pets not to mention the cute factor.

So why people don’t want a reef?
For almost the same reason as I don’t want a dog.

But it’s rewarding and the guests mouths stays open when they come around.

The main difference is I think people choose a dog is lack of good reliable information and anyway when have you seen Nemo running along with children in the garden in the adverts or films?

 

[stanlalee]

Reefers who do this long term probably don't go a single day without doing SOMETHING reef related. There is always something to do even if it's just changing a filter sock, cleaning glass or feeding the fish. I've had a few other hobbies like various car scenes, guns etc and most hobbies don't require daily attention. Most people don't want that kind of commitment and even if they do your spouse might not or take well to the cost and time it takes to be decently good at it.

 

[sarcophytonIndy]

I have both a reef and a dog, and I think probably spend more time overall caring for the dog, although maybe its a toss-up. And as far as cost, the dog can definitely be expensive at times. When I go out of town, I need someone to watch the dog, but not the reef. As for knowledge, the reef definitely requires more research and study.

 

[Paul B]

Fish store owners are not wealthy people. One store here has been in business for over 50 years and the guy still looks like a homeless person.
They don't purposely get fish and try to make the thing sick so it crashes your tank.

If the fish gets sick, it is our fault, never the LFS. He just buys fish unseen from a wholesaler who gets them unseen from a supplier. If the fish is alive, they ship it. Many of them arrive dead.

Learn what a healthy fish is supposed to look like and buy those. Virtually "all" fish are infected with something and it is our job to deal with it however we feel is best. That is part of the hobby.

I personally like to buy fish right out of the shipping box before they put them in their tanks.

I keep my fish immune so whatever disease they are carrying won't affect my tank and I figure not allowing the fish to go into the store tank is one less stressful event the fish will have to go through.

I don't want them quarantined by the store or me. I will pay more for fish right out of the sea with no medication, quarantine, observation or social security.

I think there aren't more people interested in doing this because of a lack of creativity, patience, money, understanding spouse, time, space, and a big one, to many ways to pursue this with to many methods and very few of them being successful.

If one were to read these forums and noticed all the perceived problems they would have to be nuts to jump in.

Quote:

What is the failure due to? Info? Attempts at difficult species? Would having proven stocking list help out? For example if you are a beginner with a 55 gallon tank:
You can attempt stocking list A,B,C, etc.
With a list of easy fish, corals, and inverts. With an ideal clean up crew because the clean up crew is very important.
End Quote:

The failure rate which is probably close to 90% is do to a large variety of factors. Individual opinions for start. You mentioned that "an ideal clean up crew is very important" .

I don't think they are that important and I feel all you need is bristleworms like all tanks will get then anyway. I have hermit crabs and shrimp because I like them.

Water changes is another one, At the first sign of anything most of the advice is to change the water which almost never works. People are still using cleaner shrimp to cure ich. There are so many falsehoods that have been circulating for decades that it boggles the mind.

There are no clear cut "correct" rules as this, like most hobbies relies on just experiences and guesswork. The vast majority of hobbiests have been in this for a year or two so their experiences may not be the best advice to follow but due to the internet, we unfortunately listen to everything


Just my opinion of course.