Why cant u keep sps?

[Dine]

Skimmer has multiple function their main job is to pull organic waste out from your water. Second they do make your water a little clear because they pull a lot of waste with color in the water and third they originated your water. So for me i use it mostly for the second and third reason.

On larger systems I’ve always used them. On this nano I haven’t read a review of one that was worth it. From what I read the zeovit forums are very adamant that a skimmer is required but I’m hard pressed to see the downside of adding/feeding bacteria without a skimmer. I would think weekly WCs would suffice

 

[Acrophobia]

My tanks was started with Dr Tim’s and dry rock, bare bottom. 2 weeks later SPS in the tank. It’s one month now and I have 1/2 dozen sps Frags thriving no problems. Not my first tank.

 

[Acrophobia]

I have these problems. Corals would grow from frags to mini colonies and then just STN, even though there were no changes. Sometimes, the colony would STN but a frag from the colony next to the colony did just fine. This is especially true of fast growing acros. Stylos, pocis and montis do fine and don’t have these issues for me. A few acro colonies are also not affected.

Either some bacteria or microbes are attacking the corals or I don’t have the appropriate bacteria/microbes in my tank.

As a colony gets bigger you need to add more flow

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

The zeolite rock absorb amonia the zeobak and zeostart3 eat nitrate and phosphate. Thats how zeovit produce the low nutrients for their system. I only utilize the bacteria parts to make my coral healthier however i dont run ulns my phosphate is 1.0 and nitrate is 10ppm.

Your po4 is 1.0 ppm???

 

[ycnibrc]

Your po4 is 1.0 ppm???

Yes

 

[vanpire]

Your po4 is 1.0 ppm???

Don't the bacteria from zeobak and nutrients from zeostart 3 significantly lower nitrates and phosphates? I am asking just for curiosity, not questioning your methods. I am really interested in what you are doing.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Yes

And I’ve been told mine is at a “poisonous” level hahah

 

[vanpire]

As a colony gets bigger you need to add more flow

Good suggestion. I do have 2 x MP60s and 1 x MP40 and 2 x Tunze 6095 but I am changing the flow and replacing the MP60s with new gyres 350. I do know the colonies are getting lots of flow.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

So how do we know it’s the bacteria and not the 1.0 ppm po4 that is producing your beautiful tank??

 

[WallyB]

What Perfect thread, but you need a "SICK SPS" PATIENT to examine, diagnose, and hopefully cure.

I'm a perfect SPS Failure.

I've been reefing for about 25+ years. Sure everyone has rough starts.

So let's say last 10 years, I established a pretty stable Mixed BUT (((NO SPS))) 90 GAL SYSTEM. ** SUCCESSFULL *

In case you question what degree of success/experience.... this is my mixed tank. (one of many phases, as it has outgrown, so I've pruned and replace stuff). All started from tiny Frags/single Heads, each colony.

And I actually almost DO NOTHING!!! Sump is a hollow Rubbermaid with Skimmer. Water Changes were monthly or every other Month (now daily with Auto Water changer).
Lot's of VERY OLD LIVE ROCK, so I guess BACTERIA. (I never added any extra rock for 20 years)


But over last 5-7 year, my SPS Attempts (2nd 110G TANK **SPS ONLY** NOT SHOWN) has been Total Failures. One after the other.

Lots of Frags...I get so far (and on a few rare attempt, done pretty good) then SPS start degrading.
MANY TIMES I bought new "Healthy" Frags and there is damage within 4-6 weeks. They get worse, and get tossed.
Some of my Veteran (Less sensitive) SPS hang in there with Damage.

Restarted (With same old Live rock) the 110G SPS tank two years ago after a house flood (not fish tank related), and it did pretty good for about 1 years. Then again. BUST!

I'll admit, being busy with 3 Kids, or the yearly vacation/accident contributed to some of the downfalls.
KIDS now grown up so last year is finally SANITY to Take Care of my SPS tank.

Still I think I keep coming up with Excuses for my SPS failures, but there has to be a CORE REASON.

If anyone wants to know more my SPS tank should be Perfect for SPS (At least I think so)

15 year OLD LIVE ROCKS, , some Dead CaribSea Added over time.

Good Resonable Load of Fish (8x), and I feed them 4-6 times a days.

I'm an Computer Systems engineer so I keep adding more and more automation, and accuracy.

-> Daily Auto Water 1% Changes (using Tropic Marin Pro Salt), or =30% WC a month.
-> Perfect T5/LED lighting (Fully Programmable) PAR around 300-350 at Top of Rock Scape Level, 120-180 Tank Bottom.
-> Flow Random/Powerful ( Sea Swirl + Fully Programmable MP60,Gyre XF150, 4x other Jeabos, and would be Crazy to Turn to Max and hurt fish (MP 60, Back,Left Bottom Corner, keep detritus suspended)
-> SImple two Part ESV Dosing (Alk, Mag, Calcium Pretty Stable)
-> Algae Scrubber
-> Recently added GFO (RowaPhos) to bring and stabilize P<=0.1 ((REASON for recent decision to use GFO is my P is naturally swing at around 0.3-0.4, which I thought was too high and worse unstable for SPS)
-> Worst Part that still remains with my setup is my NO3 is around 25 STABLE (Haven't tackled this EVER, thought Algae Scrubber would, but apparently not).

-> I have done the odd ICP test, each time all good (except marking my N&P high) *No ICP done in last two years*

-> I have stopped all additives, but still do a bit of Aminos.

-> I do run Toxic metal absorption media to eliminate any Heavy metal contaminations (Should there be some kind of breach/Magnet, problem)

-> Just Finiishing up a DIY ALK Monitor (Accuracy 0.01) so (next week my ALK,MAG, CAL with be Ultra Stable)
-----------> I'll be only monitoring Alk Acccurately with the Monitor (but Mag/Calcium will be stable with ESV two part, and manual checks)

In preparation for installing the Alk MOnitor, I've been super diligent with Manual testing weekly to keep thing stable.
Over last two+ months or so, added new SPS Frags to have a good fresh start.
THINGS have been super Stable (ALK=7.8, CALC=460, MAG=1350, P=0.1, N=25 @Salinity of 35), but still having SPS problems.

I keep thinking it's my high nitrates, but it can't be that. (OR IS IT?)

-> IMPORATNT POINT...Since discussion is Bacteria ( I am Glass Bottom), but I have lots of MarinePure Media in Sump (And sump has a 10 Gallon smallrefuge where I just have live rock and one fisH)
** NOTE: My 90 Gallon Tank above is also GLASS Bottom for last 10 years+ **

This would be the farthest I got about 10 months ago, with some growth/color starting before things fell apart again.

This (below) is the 110G SPS Multi-FAILURE TANK (*NOW*) where I'm start from again. Bunch of new FRAGS (The Large Yellow LPS is the only non SPS I have, and it's been around growing for years)

Why can't I keep SPS (long term)? is it depleted bacteria after so many rebuilds/restarts.

Can someone Help me make this next attempt succeed?

 

[ScottB]

Good suggestion. I do have 2 x MP60s and 1 x MP40 and 2 x Tunze 6095 but I am changing the flow and replacing the MP60s with new gyres 350. I do know the colonies are getting lots of flow.

+1 on flow with growth. I am at an impasse now with 2 X MP40 plus 2 X Gyres in the back on just a 120G display and the center front colonies are slowing down. Without putting a powerhead on the front glass, I am kinda stuck. Frag time I guess.

 

[Big E]

I have always put an importance on aged water, rock ect.........now it's called bacterial diversity. The answer/guidance has been that way for decades............I'm not sure the thought is anything new.

It's a good thing to bring up though as the message has gotten lost over time by the "need" to have everything yesterday. Patience is still important even if you can speed up the seeding process.

There are some bacterial products that I'm sure can help but I have always opted to just seed a few rocks in a friends tank or sump if you can. That will give you instant diversity that is already supporting a healthy reef.

 

[Westoncase]

Im scared to try sps cuz i dont dose and im too lazy to test water parameters

 

[LARedstickreefer]

IMO:

I think there’s a lot of merit to this idea about bacteria diversity, but just as being one part of the success equation.

At some point, a true nasty will get introduced like vibrio. In a very diverse, thriving, ecosystem, I believe that these vibrio type bacteria’s are held at bay, sort of like algae outcompeting Dino’s. In a system that has a lot of “space” for competition, you run the risk of letting these bad bacteria take over. I believe that the popular opinion on rtn is bacteria infection.

I think that most of the problems for people, including myself, is stability and balance.

Constantly changing your Alk, nitrate, and phosphate levels is a good example of instability and unbalance. 10dkh and 0N and 0Ph isn’t going to go well for your sps.

25ppm N and 0.5ppm Ph with 80par and 6dkh isn’t going to get you healthy sps either.

Constantly adjusting the above values is going to cause trouble too.

Seems that everything needs to be balanced and stable.

 

[ycnibrc]

I am not sold on the trend right now of LR from the ocean back to being they key to success. Clearly it takes less time for a tank started with LR to be stocked, but personally I have not seen enough evidence of it being key, nor have I really heard compelling evedence of the mechanism of bacterial water column diversity improving sps survival rates. When I started the hobby I used LR in a few tanks and they were terrible, because I was inexperienced.

It seems the hobby has broad swings to and away from various equipment and techniques and it's part of this lastest LR is the key movement.

Fwiw as an experienced hobbiest few years ago I setup this tank (tore down now due to health) it featured no LR, no sand - only ceramic scape. No bacterial boosters or innoculants and it was one of the easiest setups I ever had. And using led only.

LR and bacterial population diversity may vary well be the key, and that system just happened to develop perfectly, however I dont feel we are quite there to make that conclusion.

I agree with u totally since we dont have any equipment to test therefore this is just an observation on my part. I notice a lot if thread lately regarding not be able to keep sps and the common denominator is lacking if diverse bacteria strain. For me i just rely on my experience and common sense if only good parameters and flow and light will be able to keep sps then probably we dont have this thread
You can always control and create a perfect tank with perfect parameters but still u cant keep sps right away. We keep blaming on Alk , nitrate , phosphate, light , flow , salt , copper , iron lol.....and still a lot of reefers posting everyday regarding sps is dieing. Its time for me to think out of the box.

 

[ycnibrc]

Don't the bacteria from zeobak and nutrients from zeostart 3 significantly lower nitrates and phosphates? I am asking just for curiosity, not questioning your methods. I am really interested in what you are doing.

Yes they are but i feed heavily 8x a day plus frozen at night. I also have 80 fish big and small in my tank

 

[shrimped]

i think it’s not just sps but coral in general. i got a 60g running for little under 2 years with just softies mainly zoas but they all got terrible terrible growth. i also had minimal success with very basic lps and no success with sps. there isn’t really any surface area for bacterial growth so yesterday a friend told me i needed marine pure bio balls. all i have are frag racks and about 4 pieces of dry rocks. i’m confused if i need a specific strain of bacteria from live rock so i would need to restart the tank? or just add bio balls.

 

[ycnibrc]

i think it’s not just sps but coral in general. i got a 60g running for little under 2 years with just softies mainly zoas but they all got terrible terrible growth. i also had minimal success with very basic lps and no success with sps. there isn’t really any surface area for bacterial growth so yesterday a friend told me i needed marine pure bio balls. all i have are frag racks and about 4 pieces of dry rocks. i’m confused if i need a specific strain of bacteria from live rock so i would need to restart the tank? or just add bio balls.

Basically years ago we can get real live rock from the ocean which carry multiple strain of bacteria. Now we using dry rock so if u can get some rock from your friend to put in your tank then you will introduce bacteria to your system and in time they will populate. U need adequate rock so the bacteria can have a surface to attach and multiply. If u dont want to add rock to nain display then u can add to your sump

 

[shrimped]

Basically years ago we can get real live rock from the ocean which carry multiple strain of bacteria. Now we using dry rock so if u can get some rock from your friend to put in your tank then you will introduce bacteria to your system and in time they will populate. U need adequate rock so the bacteria can have a surface to attach and multiply. If u dont want to add rock to nain display then u can add to your sump

would my current bacteria strain out compete the new bacteria?

 

[Daddy-o]

Yes they are but i feed heavily 8x a day plus frozen at night. I also have 80 fish big and small in my tank

While I do agree bacteria are important, the one item to keep catching my eye is how some of you feed multiple times a day. Am I to presume that you don't have a sand bed?