Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[OrionN]

Back in the 1990's reefkeeping information was disseminated by a list-server, Reefkeeping mailing list. I got a lot of information and advises from this list. Even then, we trade coral frags. As you can see from my pictures, colorful coral can be keep. I use MH and VHO tube combination. Nutrient management was not up to par in compare to today standard. I had the Purple Acro and traded the rest of the frags. There are some wild colonies in the L side and R side pictures below. I love clams also. Back then I had a full house of clams. All five species of common Tridacna clams can be seen.

 

[OrionN]

In the late 90's typical wholesale was $15-$22 per colony IIRC and they were sold as assorted acropora sm./med./lg. You had to be there when the shipment came in and get the bags that weren't cloudy. All colonies were either sold or dead by the end of the week. Mostly dead...

There are reefers with knowledge and have the know how to keep SPS. Diversity was what most of us strive for back then. We have reef meeting where we poor a cup of sand from everybody together and then divide out and each take a cup. LFS would have LS tank and I would buy a cup from each and all of the LFS I know. We trade frags of SPS that hardy enough to survive the stress from shipping across the world.
Wild colonies have terrible survival rate back then. Most likely this is due to the terrible stress from collection and shipment. When mariculture become available, survival rate got much better.

 

[VR28man]

When’s the last time you saw a Porsche commercial? When’s the last time you ever saw Porsche advertise?

Even in stop go traffic, they drive like nothing else. Most owners will tell you that.

Edit: Where do you live that you see a lot of Porsche’s at all?

We're getting way off topic in a thread that's already gone helter skelter.......

... but Porsche definitely advertises. IIRC Car and Driver and Motor Trend always has Porsche ads. My cousin (former Porsche race driver) took me to a "Porsche Motoring School" or somesuch which was basically an ad for their entire product line, in particular the then-just released Panamera. (Cayman was my favorite - lowest weight = most maneuverable - but I don't have $80k for a completely impractical. But it's awesome that you use it as apparently your only car?)

As far as "where do you see a lot of Porsches", I would say the DC area, especially in Tyson's corner, Great Falls, Potomac, and upper NW DC. In the LA area, IIRC they were common IVO Glendale mall, and I'd imagine they're pretty common up in some of the big mansion areas.

And to get back something realted to the point of this thread, in a small tank you definitely have to pick a few corals you like. If that's a $100 or $200 frag, go for it. Just be sure that it's awesome and that you can take care of it well.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

We're getting way off topic in a thread that's already gone helter skelter.......

... but Porsche definitely advertises. IIRC Car and Driver and Motor Trend always has Porsche ads. My cousin (former Porsche race driver) took me to a "Porsche Motoring School" or somesuch which was basically an ad for their entire product line, in particular the then-just released Panamera. (Cayman was my favorite - lowest weight = most maneuverable - but I don't have $80k for a completely impractical. But it's awesome that you use it as apparently your only car?)

As far as "where do you see a lot of Porsches", I would say the DC area, especially in Tyson's corner, Great Falls, Potomac, and upper NW DC. In the LA area, IIRC they were common IVO Glendale mall, and I'd imagine they're pretty common up in some of the big mansion areas.

And to get back something realted to the point of this thread, in a small tank you definitely have to pick a few corals you like. If that's a $100 or $200 frag, go for it. Just be sure that it's awesome and that you can take care of it well.

Ahh, yes. But they advertise to CAR people. Not to the general public. You have to be looking in the right place to see an advertisement. Genpub doesn’t read those magazines, they have just decided in their heads that Porsche is only for people who need some sort of status symbol to feel good. They don’t go sit in the seat of one and drive it before judging. Everyone that has ridden with me has changed their opinion of Porsche.

Same goes for the “expensive” corals. See some of them in person and you’ll know why they go for $200/in. Put them up next to a $10 special and you’ll see it has nothing to do with status.

It’s not fair to just start a thread that leads to conclusions that a coral, or car, is overpriced just because you don’t see value in it. It’s also a bit insulting to have others suggest it’s status that some of us are chasing when we go buy something that most can’t/won’t.

Btw-Take the number of Porsche’s that you really see and divide by the number of non Porsche cars. That number is probably so close to zero that it might as well be zero. It’s mostly a car for people that like to drive cars. Not ride in cars. A JF homewrecker isn’t for your run of the mill dudebro with a tank. It’s for the specialist out there that have the addiction.

 

[VR28man]

Ahh, yes. But they advertise to CAR people. Not to the general public. You have to be looking in the right place to see an advertisement. Genpub doesn’t read those magazines, they have just decided in their heads that Porsche is only for people who need some sort of status symbol to feel good. They don’t go sit in the seat of one and drive it before judging. Everyone that has ridden with me has changed their opinion of Porsche.

Some would say Cayenne. (obviously it performed worst on the track at the "driving school" in China, and even the Chinese trophy wives at the driving school saw that. It just comes with being an SUV among sports cars). But I would just take it from the words of a "Porsche brand ambassador":

We are now entering delicate territory, but there is no denying that Porsche stands as a status symbol in society. Porsche vehicles are considered as a merit of success all over the world. Owning a Porsche speaks to an individual’s achievements as well as their prosperity.

“It’s a status symbol that you have made it,” said Porsche Brand Ambassador Tony Montaleone. (VR28man aside - I think this might have been the dude who led the "driving school") “You end up driving it and falling in love with what you bought after the fact. The initial attraction is that it is a Porsche. It’s a strong label. Do you want to look good going to the country club or on Sunday morning do you want to rip up the hill country and hit the back roads? It checks both boxes.”

http://carsofhtm.com/the-porsche-obsession-whats-the-deal/

Btw-Take the number of Porsche’s that you really see and divide by the number of non Porsche cars. That number is probably so close to zero that it might as well be zero. It’s mostly a car for people that like to drive cars. Not ride in cars. A JF homewrecker isn’t for your run of the mill dudebro with a tank. It’s for the specialist out there that have the addiction.

That's fair. I think it's around 1/100 for my area.

Same goes for the “expensive” corals. See some of them in person and you’ll know why they go for $200/in. Put them up next to a $10 special and you’ll see it has nothing to do with status.

THIS STATEMENT IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT PICS!!!!!!!

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Some would say Cayenne. (obviously it performed worst on the track at the "driving school" in China, and even the Chinese trophy wives at the driving school saw that. It just comes with being an SUV among sports cars). But I would just take it from the words of a "Porsche brand ambassador":


http://carsofhtm.com/the-porsche-obsession-whats-the-deal/



That's fair. I think it's around 1/100 for my area.



THIS STATEMENT IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT PICS!!!!!!!

Again, how many people do you think have read what the Porsche dude said? I’m not denying that the general consensus is that Porsche equals status, I’m just questioning why people think that. Porsche doesn’t reach out to Genpop to do this, Genpop does it itself.

I paid less for both of my Porsche’s then most people spend on their Ford super duty trucks. We could start a whole new thread about people buying those things....

Drive a Cayenne for the day and then go drive a Toyota 4Runner and tell me Cayenne is for rich Asians Using a Cayenne for a track car is pretty silly anyways.

You only live once so do the following:
1-Go to one of the Porsche driving experience tracks and pay for a session. Not in a Cayenne, in anything but a Cayenne.

2-Get you a JF homewrecker frag.

You’ll see how easy it is to come to the dark side.

 

[NS Mike D]

When’s the last time you saw a Porsche commercial? When’s the last time you ever saw Porsche advertise?

Even in stop go traffic, they drive like nothing else. Most owners will tell you that.

Edit: Where do you live that you see a lot of Porsche’s at all?

This status (Porsche or some Acro) thing is merely a social construct.

TV advertising is just one component of a marketing program. TV advertising is for main stream products. Luxury products use other more selective forms of promotion, like magazines, product placement, celebrity gifts, events etc. Web page, FB and twitter also. When was the last time you saw a TV ad for Brown Brothers (a prestigious private bank)? Yet, like porsche, they too strategically advertise. Pick up a copy of Trust and Estates and you'll see the other world of luxury advertising.

Porche (and VW) are fully aware that what you do to the minds of people is just as, if not more, important that what you do to the product.

(PS do you think keeping the key on the left side of the steering wheel was due to an engineering study or market research that concluded it was part of the image that the brand is unique).


Owner may tell people the porsche drives better in stop and go, but I can tell you on the LIE a 911 at rush hour is no different that a camry. A Spider however sucks in stop and go.

Long Island, 3 million people, 8 million if you include Brooklyn and Queens. Many pockets of affluent. I would guess I see 20 porsches a day. Lots of other luxury sports cars as well.


Nothing against he car, I totally respect the car. But, it is a status symbol (as are most luxury products) as well as a wonderful tribute to engineering.

Enjoy your ride.

 

[NS Mike D]

Ahh, yes. But they advertise to CAR people. Not to the general public. You have to be looking in the right place to see an advertisement. Genpub doesn’t read those magazines, they have just decided in their heads that Porsche is only for people who need some sort of status symbol to feel good. They don’t go sit in the seat of one and drive it before judging. Everyone that has ridden with me has changed their opinion of Porsche.

Same goes for the “expensive” corals. See some of them in person and you’ll know why they go for $200/in. Put them up next to a $10 special and you’ll see it has nothing to do with status.

It’s not fair to just start a thread that leads to conclusions that a coral, or car, is overpriced just because you don’t see value in it. It’s also a bit insulting to have others suggest it’s status that some of us are chasing when we go buy something that most can’t/won’t.

Btw-Take the number of Porsche’s that you really see and divide by the number of non Porsche cars. That number is probably so close to zero that it might as well be zero. It’s mostly a car for people that like to drive cars. Not ride in cars. A JF homewrecker isn’t for your run of the mill dudebro with a tank. It’s for the specialist out there that have the addiction.

They advertise to affluent car people. And they advertise affluent people outside the car people world. They are a sports car so yes, they are advertising to people who care about the ride, they of course are not advertising 911 about putting the kids and groceries in the back, for that they put the Cayenne in that ad space.


for the record, I am not arguing in any way against your comparisons to the high end acro market. I agree, but also believe that status plays a big role in that market demand (and in a big role, I am not saying its the only reason nor that every one cates about status ). If you have that disposable income for a limited supply frag or a luxury car, all the more power to you.

At one point our driveway had a Tahoe, a Lexus and an Infinity. The Lexus and Infinity were basically station cars while the nanny had the Tahoe during the week and whoever was driving the kids on the weekend. I picked up the Lexus and Infinity second hand for cash while the Tahoe with it's 6 extra inches of width was one of just a few SUVs that could fit three car seats across and with the removable third row was crucial since the cousins lived around the block and the decision was handed down to me that we had to buy a car that could fit the kids from both families.

There was a lot of practicality that went into buying those cars and we were blessed they nicely fit into our budget, but I would be lying to you that when all three were in the driveway, they fit the neighborhood too. Nothing to be ashamed of status if you can afford it and keep it in perspective.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

I notice attitudes, opinions and explanations are varying based on how long someone has been in the hobby but consistent over all in threads like this.

Someone creates a thread about their dissatisfaction about the state of the hobby. I think there are a few different things are being discussed but ultimately revolves around the topic of coral pricing.

I find a little humor in this but Which one are you ?

• The "CAPITALISM!" guy within the first page of the thread......

which one is the problem?

Let me know what you think and if I missed any.

Ha! That was quite amusing, thanks for that. But I do think you missed one:

The "I'm annoyed that my desire for the Strawberry Whipple Sundae acro is out of reach because the frag vendors won't sell it to me for what I want to pay. Therefore, the reef hobby is unfairly expensive" guy.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Back in the 1990's reefkeeping information was disseminated by a list-server, Reefkeeping mailing list. I got a lot of information and advises from this list. Even then, we trade coral frags. As you can see from my pictures, colorful coral can be keep. I use MH and VHO tube combination. Nutrient management was not up to par in compare to today standard. I had the Purple Acro and traded the rest of the frags. There are some wild colonies in the L side and R side pictures below. I love clams also. Back then I had a full house of clams. All five species of common Tridacna clams can be seen.

Just to reinforce this thought, I've been keeping reefs since 1990. Folks on the thread that are thinking that we couldn't keep stony corals back then and they all died aren't correct. It's also wildly incorrect to state that stony corals, especially colorful SPS, were cheap back then - in relative terms, they were MORE expensive than the apples-to-apples comparison with today's unnamed wild or maricultured SPS. It very much IS true that frags with fancy names sell for a great deal more than corals did in the 1990's, but that's not a relevant observation. Frags will fancy names sell for a great deal more than unnamed colonies today - the timeframe has nothing to do with it.

There's a number of comments on this thread to the effect that folks that were into reefing in the mid 2000's, got out, then were shocked at the prices when the got back in a year or two ago are also making an error. It's not that the overall cost of coral has dramatically increased - it hasn't, factoring in the effect of inflation and the current restricted wild supply. What HAS changed is the "style" of reefing - the frenzy around a tank full of "designer corals" is a relatively new thing. Throughout most of the last 30 years of reefing or so, the majority of hobbyists were looking to create a pleasing environment, much the way an advanced freshwater planted tank hobbyist desires to create an aquascape as a whole. They had no idea what their coral's "names" were, nor did they care, because it wasn't about collecting corals in the way someone might collect sports memorabilia. I guess the most relevant analogy in the planted tank world is if someone was keeping a shallow tank with the aquatic plants arranged in rows, with each having a name tag in front of it as their show tank. Planted tank hobbyists, by and large, don't do their thing in this way, and reefers didn't either for most of the last 30 years.

 

[mfrumkin]

We're getting way off topic in a thread that's already gone helter skelter.......


As far as "where do you see a lot of Porsches", I would say the DC area, especially in Tyson's corner, Great Falls, Potomac, and upper NW DC. In the LA area, IIRC they were common IVO Glendale mall, and I'd imagine they're pretty common up in some of the big mansion areas.

And to get back something realted to the point of this thread, in a small tank you definitely have to pick a few corals you like. If that's a $100 or $200 frag, go for it. Just be sure that it's awesome and that you can take care of it well.

"As far as "where do you see a lot of Porsches" In Los Angeles areas the Porsche has become a middle-class vehicle. The REALLY status conscious drive Lamborghinis, Ferraris, and Tesla's, (the vehicle of choice for the eco-friendly well to do). I now see a number of Maserati and Lambo SUVs, (did a double take the first time I saw a Lambo SUV). I have never owned a Ferrari, but I have friends who have and they all switched to Porsches and Corvettes after a couple of years. Maintenance is BRUTAL. Personally, my mid-life crisis car of choice is the Corvette, #allcorvettesarered. Detroit steel, (ok fiberglass), and Bowling Green manufactured.

 

[mfrumkin]

Back in the 1990's reefkeeping information was disseminated by a list-server, Reefkeeping mailing list. I got a lot of information and advises from this list. Even then, we trade coral frags. As you can see from my pictures, colorful coral can be keep. I use MH and VHO tube combination. Nutrient management was not up to par in compare to today standard. I had the Purple Acro and traded the rest of the frags. There are some wild colonies in the L side and R side pictures below. I love clams also. Back then I had a full house of clams. All five species of common Tridacna clams can be seen.

NICE TANK. I'd love to see some close-up shots.

 

[Ike]

"As far as "where do you see a lot of Porsches" In Los Angeles areas the Porsche has become a middle-class vehicle. The REALLY status conscious drive Lamborghinis, Ferraris, and Tesla's, (the vehicle of choice for the eco-friendly well to do). I now see a number of Maserati and Lambo SUVs, (did a double take the first time I saw a Lambo SUV). I have never owned a Ferrari, but I have friends who have and they all switched to Porsches and Corvettes after a couple of years. Maintenance is BRUTAL. Personally, my mid-life crisis car of choice is the Corvette, #allcorvettesarered. Detroit steel, (ok fiberglass), and Bowling Green manufactured.

I can't leave my house without seeing a 911 (in summer), Panamera, Macan and Cayenne...

I like Corvettes now, they have become an incredible bang for the buck for performance oriented car enthusiasts. I used to complain about the steering feel and shifter, but the last two gens have have made incredible strides in the handling and feel department. I just can't get beyond the stigma of it being an old white guy car, well, and a couple other stigmas. Yet, I now drive a '13 CTS-V Been trying to decide if I want to sell it and get two cars, something really impractical and a basic daily driver, keep it and get a GTI/SI/WRX for a winter car, or trade it in for something like an E63 wagon or RS7. I just don't think I'm ready to own an automatic...

 

[mfrumkin]

I can't leave my house without seeing a 911 (in summer), Panamera, Macan and Cayenne...
I just can't get beyond the stigma of it being an old white guy guy car,

I agree. The downside is the perception that it is old farts like me driving Corvettes. The upside is I blow the young guys out of the water. Once on the way to Vegas I hit 160mph in my ZR-1, the 1990's original version and my wife turned to me and said, "what if we hit a road hazard at this speed?" My response, "We probably die." I slowed down.

BTW, I would not recommend a 1990's era ZR-1 to anybody. The Mercury Marine engine made it nearly impossible to work on and Chevy mechanics had to get specially certified. To do almost any maintenance on the car the engine had to be dropped out. I lived in constant fear that something would break because I couldn't fix it myself. It was called the King of the Hill, but it was also a big pain in the butt. Living in Los Angeles one thing that really annoyed me was they couldn't get the A/C right. The engine generated more heat than the A/C unit could properly handle.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

I can't leave my house without seeing a 911 (in summer), Panamera, Macan and Cayenne...

I like Corvettes now, they have become an incredible bang for the buck for performance oriented car enthusiasts. I used to complain about the steering feel and shifter, but the last two gens have have made incredible strides in the handling and feel department. I just can't get beyond the stigma of it being an old white guy guy car, well, and a couple other stigmas. Yet, I now drive a '13 CTS-V Been trying to decide if I want to sell it and get two cars, something really impractical and a basic daily driver, keep it and get a GTI/SI/WRX for a winter car, or trade it in for something like an E63 wagon or RS7. I just don't think I'm ready to own an automatic...

Go for the RS7

See, Porsche is a middle class car now. One can go on down to the dealer and pick up a CPO for half price. Maintenance isn’t that bad either if you go to a good Indy. No status symbol there.

Now a Lambo or Ferrari is a bit different. While they don’t advertise to the Genpop either, they DO show up in a lot of movies and are always shown with the ultra elite/wealthy. Never have I seen a dudebro casually get into his Lambo in a movie.

Can’t say I’ve ever seen Porsche show up in a movie.

My Father in Law won’t drive my Boxster, but he sure loved driving my Cayenne. He completely changed his tune when he got to drive it home several hours away, realizing it wasn’t about status at all.

As for corals, you guys can’t be seriously saying that $10 frags are the same class as $200 frags? Look at the orange Monti cap vs Beach bum for example.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

I agree. The downside is the perception that it is old farts like me driving Corvettes. The upside is I blow the young guys out of the water. Once on the way to Vegas I hit 160mph in my ZR-1, the 1990's original version, and my wife turned to me and said, "what if we hit a road hazard at this speed?" My response, "We probably die." I slowed down.

That’s cuz it’s all we ever see

Same goes for Porsche. I’m a younger dude and get some odd looks when I hop out in my flip flops.

These cars go fast, but straight line speed isn’t fun. It’s the twisties that I like. I get in my Boxster for weekend fun on back roads.

 

[mfrumkin]

Go for the RS7

Great article comparing the 911 to the RS7: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...ces-audi-rs7-the-struggle-is-real-135641.html

 

[OrionN]

NICE TANK. I'd love to see some close-up shots.

That tank was back in the late 1990’s
I have a built thread here on R2R for my current tank

I got a few closeup on my 1990’s tank on the previous page

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Great article comparing the 911 to the RS7: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...ces-audi-rs7-the-struggle-is-real-135641.html

Forget chores for today, I’m going driving

 

[Ike]

Go for the RS7

See, Porsche is a middle class car now. One can go on down to the dealer and pick up a CPO for half price. Maintenance isn’t that bad either if you go to a good Indy. No status symbol there.

Now a Lambo or Ferrari is a bit different. While they don’t advertise to the Genpop either, they DO show up in a lot of movies and are always shown with the ultra elite/wealthy. Never have I seen a dudebro casually get into his Lambo in a movie.

Can’t say I’ve ever seen Porsche show up in a movie.

My Father in Law won’t drive my Boxster, but he sure loved driving my Cayenne. He completely changed his tune when he got to drive it home several hours away, realizing it wasn’t about status at all.

As for corals, you guys can’t be seriously saying that $10 frags are the same class as $200 frags? Look at the orange Monti cap vs Beach bum for example.

The automatic thing though...

Movies: Risky Business, Bad Boys, Gone in 60 seconds, Top Gun, Le Manas (it counts!) just to name a few... Plus, Sally from Cars

I would contend that there are plenty of coral frags that if released today would be $300+ dollar frags if released now. Oregon Tort, Red Dragon, Pink Lemonade, Vivid Rainbow all come to mind...

I agree. The downside is the perception that it is old farts like me driving Corvettes. The upside is I blow the young guys out of the water. Once on the way to Vegas I hit 160mph in my ZR-1, the 1990's original version, and my wife turned to me and said, "what if we hit a road hazard at this speed?" My response, "We probably die." I slowed down.

I have close to 600whp in my car. It's so frighteningly easy to hit 150... It feels so smooth and poised...