Why Fish in Captivity get Sick

[HotRocks]

@flamp- how about because you come off as a rude know it all. You are not fostering discussion.
Last time I checked, success typically comes first in any endeavor. It is only after that success occurs that you take the time to understand why.

If you think the OP is wrong, let's take what everyone has experienced following PaulB's recommendations. The recommendations are to feed fish black worms, white worms, and occasional whole clams, muscles, and other shelled animals.

1) Fish are not quarantined, and are often acquired with illness.
2) Medication or other intervention is not needed for fish to overcome their ailments.
3) Fish are healthy enough to spawn, and will do so if they have an appropriate mate in the system.

With this criteria, which is PROVEN to work, YOU tell me why it works. I want you to send over a PEER REVIEWED paper that covers every possible explanation other than gut biome health for the 3 facts that are the result of this fish diet.

When you have that, then you can enter the discussion again.

Lol lol.
You forgot about the “unspoken” list of fish Paul loses too. He doesn’t talk about that!

 

[Mr. Fishy Fish]

And it's a wonder too that I never use ad hominem attacks but the OP and others have no problem with it. (Among many other logical fallacies)

Oh, I love logical fallacies . @flampton, there's no point in engaging a circular argument. Paul is entitled to his opinion and so are you. The issue is you're fueling a circular argument by replying with academic jargon that most people don't understand. IMO most of the people on here don't even know/understand what an ad hominem (this is one of the many logical fallacies in philosophy) or a logical fallacy is. You're very educated and I can only respect that as a supporter of academia. However, sometimes knowledge can be a double-edged sword that won't allow us to reflect on our own behavior and biases (I've been guilty of this many times). A lot of the replies on this thread only show that most people don't understand how modern science works. FWIW confirming Paul's hypothesis alone is not enough. Many people are stating they've confirmed Paul's hypothesis, but that doesn't prove his methods are correct. Disconfirming (directly or indirectly) all other plausible hypotheses until only his remains will prove his hypothesis is correct. With that being said, I'm not trying to argue with anyone, nor will I reply to anyone that attempts to engage in an argument.

Hugs and kisses everyone. Let's try to keep things civil. Or you all can continue as you please, I find it hilarious. Hopefully tomorrow morning I can get some more laughs while I drink my coffee.

P.S. Paul, I'm not disagreeing with your hypothesis nor am I claiming that I know it's true. I'm just briefly explaining the difference between scientific facts and opinions. You already know I respect your opinion and experience (or at least I'd like to think you know that). Anyway, I just thought I'd throw this out there. It's time for bed, night everyone.

 

[Paul B]

Finally if I had a friend with a twenty five year old cat I wouldn't just believe them if they said its because of feeding them rodents and the dirt in their yard. This is exactly the same thing.

I may not believe them either, but if he has a 25 year old cat, and my cats keep dying way before that, I will study what he does and perhaps I would find out that maybe it is dirt and rodents.
Especially if he has been keeping cats for 50 years and they all seem to live very long.

Lol lol.
You forgot about the “unspoken” list of fish Paul loses too. He doesn’t talk about that!

LOL. I am sure you know that I do lose quite a bit of fish and if you have been reading my thread you will know I do post about them.
I have about 25 fish now. They will all die eventually.


Most jump out as I don't use a cover. I posted a few mandarins that died from being egg bound.





I recently lost a 10 year old copperband that I will say died of old age but I didn't put him in an MRI. He did have perfect gills though.



Before that copperband I had another one which didn't live very long. He had a few slightly raised scales on his side when I got him. It got redder and he died. I did do a necropsy on that one and he had internal bleeding. It looked like he was injured in capture as one of his ribs was causing the bleeding. I posted about it and he is also in my book.



Most of my fish as I say, die many years old and I just posted a pair of 12 year old watchman gobies.
I lost a moorish Idol at age five which is a failure but pretty good for that fish.
My fireclown here with his eggs will be 30 in March and his partner is a few years younger. I assume they will die with in ten years and when they do, If I am still alive, I will post about it.



These guys died after a couple of years, probably because I couldn't hatch enough brine shrimp, but they had no diseases. (yes, I know that)


I think this guy is about 8 or 10, still kicking.


A recent pair of these Bangai Cardinals lived about 5 years. They have the shortest natural lifespan out of all the fish we keep and it is said their lifespan is about 3 years. They spawned many times as I posted and posted their pictures just before they died (of old age)



Here is one of them near the end of his life.


These shrimpfish were a failure. I got them (and posted about them) covered in parasites. One died the second day and I left him in there for the crabs. The other two lived a few weeks and again, I couldn't hatch enough shrimp for them.



These banana wrasses spawned then jumped out. I did post that I think


This girl here with her eggs above her lived maybe 4 or 5 years. I don't know what their lifespans are.


Hundreds of fish are born in my tank but get eaten so I don't count them. This is a clown gobi.


I killed this 10 year old mandarin by accident after many spawning s. I also killed an 18 year old cusk eel in the same accident.


I can look through my old log book from the early years and I eventually lost all of my fish. They don't live forever. But not from a communicable disease.
The thread about my tank here goes back to 2011 and I had one on another forum, which I quit that I think was started in 2008.

I am not sure what else I should do. Anyone who wants can come to my home and see what I do.
Bring your own lunch but you may be very bored because although I am very busy with other projects, I do very little with my tank.

I think that if you don't agree with me, and there is no reason you should. And you feel you have something to teach, perhaps a better method, you should start your own thread with your Ideas.
If I disagree, like I do for almost all the medication and quarantine threads, I just won't go on it because I know my opinions would disrupt the OPs thread and it would not be my place to do so.

If you do start a thread, I believe you should also post pictures of your many accomplishments to show the reader what you are talking about.
Have a great Day.

 

[WVNed]

Modern science reminds me of old religion

Burn the Witch

 

[kschweer]

Lol lol.
You forgot about the “unspoken” list of fish Paul loses too. He doesn’t talk about that!

I think this goes for most disease “experts” they’re quick to tout their successes and “research” but fail to mention the research cost fish lives either to disease or the “new” treatment. Would be nice to have more transparency that way but it’s not likely to happen.

 

[Paul B]

I agree and think I just did that in my last post. I can't list all the fish I lost in 50 years as that would be difficult and silly

 

[HotRocks]

I think this goes for most disease “experts” they’re quick to tout their successes and “research” but fail to mention the research cost fish lives either to disease or the “new” treatment. Would be nice to have more transparency that way but it’s not likely to happen.

“Says the guy who doesn’t even have a tank”.

I have always been transparent about losses. It happens to EVERYONE in this hobby.

I have always enjoyed the friendly scrutiny @Paul B provides along with the frequent comedic relief.

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

Friendly reminder to keep things civil and don't let it get personal. Hate to do it but we will remove anyone not abiding from here on out. We want to keep this thread open!

 

[kschweer]

“Says the guy who doesn’t even have a tank”.

I have always been transparent about losses. It happens to EVERYONE in this hobby.

I have always enjoyed the friendly scrutiny @Paul B provides along with the frequent comedic relief.

You got me there. I wasn’t speaking to anyone in particular, but certainly not you.

 

[fishybizzness]

Let's all have a snickers ! It's a fish forum, it's meant to be fun and an escape to hang out with like minded folks.

 

[fishybizzness]

Keep the knowledge and experience coming Paul! We appreciate you!

 

[atoll]

Stress is the biggest fish killer

Stress come from many sources, it's our responsibility to reduce those stresses. Everything from incorrect food, incorrect environment and poor choice of tank mates. It's what comes from stress more than the stress itself that is worrying. However, we can all limit stress in our aquariums. A stress less aquarium goes a long way towards healthy fish and aquarium. I discovered this over 30 years ago now and every tank I gave had since has been free of any serious disease since. Like Paul I have no QT no medication and feed the right foods. I have created an environment as much as possible to what my fish would inhabit in their natural surroundings and choose their tank mates accordingly. Stress as far as I can see is on a very low scale indeed.

This!

This is why I have worked so hard to raise the O2 levels of my tanks. This makes sense.

Do you use an Oxydator to raise O2, ozone or something else?

 

[Paul B]

I have always been transparent about losses. It happens to EVERYONE in this hobby.

I was always very transparent, especially when I used to keep "glass catfish".

Hello my friend Atoll. I was waiting for you to come and help me as your tank and mine enjoy disease free living.

Of course no one believes us so I think I will just go and eat worms.

 

[atoll]

I was always very transparent, especially when I used to keep "glass catfish".

Hello my friend Atoll. I was waiting for you to come and help me as your tank and mine enjoy disease free living.

Of course no one believes us so I think I will just go and eat worms.

Well not quite everyone Paul. Those that can think outside the box along with stop believing meds and QT are the only answer to disease and a healthy aquarium. People may argue about the whys and whatfors even our methods but they can't argue about our success. Am just a simple chippy who long ago said stop, I have a few ideas, that was round about 34/35 years ago. I got similar abuse and criticism as you of course. Strange in a way as when they said "let's see your tank" (I knew that would be coming so I didn't post pics of my tank) most would slink off perhaps with their tails between their legs I'm not sure. I even showed videos of my tanks via YouTube some actually said " nice tank" but little more. You probably know my philosophy on reefkeeping as I have said it many times on your threads. I make no apology for stating it here. Follow mother nature as much as is reasonably (inset you own interpretation of reasonable) possible she knows best and try as you might you won't improve on her ways and methods. After all she has had millions of years to perfect her methods and ways and you won't go far wrong in copying them. We may employ a few tricks to assist in doing what she does however. Happy reefing it's what it's supposed to be all about. ;Happy

 

[Paul B]

Atoll, I have been in these arguments since the beginning of the hobby. I am not sure why. I always try to post pictures to boost my theories and I think I have added enough pictures here and in the thousands of posts I have made on forums and paper magazines.

I think if anyone has an idea that they think helps the hobby, and it is not just rehashed information they should start a thread. If I don't agree with it I just won't go on it and screw it up. I try not to anyway.
I never go on quarantine or medication threads because I think fish should not get sick in the first place.

I know how to cure fish but my methods are very old school and I would be condemned and laughed off here not to mention having sea urchin spines stuck in my toes.

Of course I can cure fish, I have been doing this for a while. Ich for instance can be cured in about a day copper and quinicrine hydrosulphate (I know I spelled that wrong but I am very tired from winterizing my boat most of today.

I can cure pop eye in 5 seconds, it is in my book. The reason I wrote a book is because no one argues with me except sometimes someone sets it on fire, throws it on my doorstep, rings my bell and runs away.

 

[atoll]

Atoll, I have been in these arguments since the beginning of the hobby. I am not sure why. I always try to post pictures to boost my theories and I think I have added enough pictures here and in the thousands of posts I have made on forums and paper magazines.

I think if anyone has an idea that they think helps the hobby, and it is not just rehashed information they should start a thread. If I don't agree with it I just won't go on it and screw it up. I try not to anyway.
I never go on quarantine or medication threads because I think fish should not get sick in the first place.

I know how to cure fish but my methods are very old school and I would be condemned and laughed off here not to mention having sea urchin spines stuck in my toes.

Of course I can cure fish, I have been doing this for a while. Ich for instance can be cured in about a day copper and quinicrine hydrosulphate (I know I spelled that wrong but I am very tired from winterizing my boat most of today.

I can cure pop eye in 5 seconds, it is in my book. The reason I wrote a book is because no one argues with me except sometimes someone sets it on fire, throws it on my doorstep, rings my bell and runs away.

Yeah but your keeping your reef all wrong Paul
Mine before I moved house and broke it down. New one slowly maturing and it wilm be as successful as that.

 

[Paul B]

I moved my tank 3 times in almost fifty years. The last time was almost 3 years ago as my wife and I downsized from a big house to a condo. There are no stairs here and my wife doesn't do stairs very well any more. I posted all about the move on here. It had 31,000 views.

Moving 47 year old reef 60 miles. OMG

So about six months ago our closest friends got a new Grand Son and he lives in Long Island right near where I live. Of course they wanted to see him all the time and they moved to Key Largo a couple of years ago so they bought a condo 60 miles east from my home out on Long Island in wine...

www.reef2reef.com

Here is my tank maybe 25 years ago. I think it looked the most natural then. You can see all the way to the left my now 30 year old fireclown. He must have been about 10 then.
I collected all that Codium seaweed in the Atlantic our on eastern Long Island where I live now.

 

[Alenya]

Yes thanks, I think what you're seeing is that when you challenge popularity it makes the followers uncomfortable. Read my first post in the thread and the immediate response. Then continue reading and see what is said towards me versus the OP. Do you see a divergence there? The fly honey over vinegar thing would never work to any appreciable sense on a forum like this. I know the psychology and I know that if I said please consider this OP, who just implied someone was ignorant, that would have zero chance of helping anyone. The point of my posts is for the current and future readers to realize that this hypothesis is misinformation and may cause harm. I don't need social standing on a reef message board to fulfill my self esteem.

And it's a wonder too that I never use ad hominem attacks but the OP and others have no problem with it. (Among many other logical fallacies)

Finally if I had a friend with a twenty five year old cat I wouldn't just believe them if they said its because of feeding them rodents and the dirt in their yard. This is exactly the same thing.

I work in an industry where someone will tell me how they’ve been doing so-and-so for 20 years or 40 years and never had a problem.

Me: eyeballs them as I continue to examine the failed system I was called out for.

Arguments trying to explain the science of why they have an issue as they continue to insist they should be able to use a product in a way that it chemically can’t work.

You can learn a lot from people who have been in it for a long time. However they are very capable of getting things super inaccurate as well. Nobody is perfect.

Always take things with a grain of salt and cast a wide net when seeking information.

 

[atoll]

I work in an industry where someone will tell me how they’ve been doing so-and-so for 20 years or 40 years and never had a problem.

You can learn a lot from people who have been in it for a long time. However they are very capable of getting things super inaccurate as well. Nobody is perfect.

All very well but what do you then think when 6 8 or10 others report the same or similar things?
I say that because Paul isn't alone in his ways. There are others on here who practice very similar ways with equal results so we aren't talking just one individual with a ridiculous way of keeping our reefs but many equally ridiculous. Am not only talking with in US but in Europe as well. I have a few friends here in the UK who now hardly ever post on forums because they gave up trying to defend the way they keep their reef.
My friends don't mind the questions but it's the manner of many the thou shall not brigade who can't or won't accept the results we get. We don't just make hollow claims we show them with photos and videos of beautiful clean disease free reefs. Of course there are many ways to keep a beautiful reef but I don't see many 20 year or more old disease free thriving ones. If our methods didn't work we simply wouldn't advocate them as there would be nothing to be gained by such and yet often you are all but called liars because our ways don't fit their model.
How many fish die in QT or from the very medication designed to cure them. I think the numbers are appalling and you don't have to look far for the answers.

 

[SkyDoodles]

Robbyg, I don't think anyone knows what it is but you and me know that when we grew up, there were no computers or cell phones so we spent all our time outside playing in the dirt. We dug worms and went fishing, we climbed trees and we ate as bunch of questionable foods.
In those days milk went bad in a couple of days and before we drank it we smelled it because it was often stale.
Today it lasts 2 months. Why? What did they do to it?
We didn't wash our hands very often because we were outside constantly.

While fishing with filthy worms how many times have we stuck the hook into our finger? We just wiped off the blood on our sleeve and kept fishing.
We also fought and got cut. It's hard to get cut on a computer unless you drop it on your foot.

WE also walked or bicycled many places as most families had only one car and your parent had it.
We got a lot of sunshine. That glow that is emitted from your cell phone will not make any vitamin D.

I dropped my laptop on my foot...cut my pinky toe...true story!!!!!! LOL!!!!! But i know what you mean we were always covered in dirt, climbing trees and such as kids!!!! we were pretty healthy back then, now is another story!!!!