Why is SPS so hard?

[WetWhistle]

Oh it does take a lot of experience to know what is going on just by looking. When you are starting off or till you have been doing it for some time you do need to test your tank. But as you test you should take a look at your tank and remember what went on and the responses you got from your tank. In time you learn how to predict what is going on and what the most likely causes are. So you know where to look first. In time it becomes second nature.

 

[diablomaster9045]

I think it's definitely a light a flow problem. Those kessils are only good for nano tanks. Anything that's deeper than 16 inches I would not use them on. Plus I have not seen a single tank that has kept nice sps with just kessils. The tanks with nice sps were kessil Halide or kessil t5 combinations. (Please post if you can prove me wrong. I want to have faith for kessils but so far it has been complete disappointment)

As for flow I would shoot for at least 3000 gph not including your return pump if you want to shoot for keeping sps.


Also, I am with @ritter6788 that I would not trust the fish store saltwater. My LFS uses tap water when mixing their saltwater. I would mix your own saltwater since you have the RO/DI unit for topoff. I strongly recommend one of the following salts (Tropic Marin, Fritz RPM, Salinity (As long as you always roll the bucket very well before adding the salt to the RO/DI water), 1/2 IO Reef Crystals 1/2 IO, or Redsea)

 

[joshbbert]

Kessils got plenty of par sirs, id like to see that par read out...

 

[acolotto]

Kessils got plenty of par sirs, id like to see that par read out...

My guess is its the kessils, the 160s dont really put to much PAR out. A guy in our local reef club just used a par meter on his at full intensity at got a reading of 135 right under the water line with the kessil 14" above the tank. He did get 300 at 9" but said it started falling off as soon as he started moving the meter sideways.

Midway between the white and blue settings on the dial - so full intensity and full spectrum. I would say that Kessil adequately covers about an 8" circle at a 10-15" height for SPS. For comparison, I mounted my 36" ATI Powermodule (no leds) w/ 4 bulbs over the same frag tank and now get 150-350 PAR over the entire tank (36x24) at basically the same height. I'd estimate the difference is 5-10x more coverage with 100-200% the PAR using 4x the power.

The small Kessils really are way less powerful then people think.

(I tried all settings, and the above is what gave the highest par reading - all blue was 10-30% less)

 

[diablomaster9045]

Kessils got plenty of par sirs, id like to see that par read out...

The large units have reasonable par output. The small ones are designed for nano tanks. Like 16 inches max depth. The 160's are not designed for a deeper tank like a 55g.

If he had some 350's or 360's they would be fine but not 160's.

 

[cdness]

Testing daily is a great way to see if you have swings or to see the general daily use of additives. I tested daily for years and then stopped since it was so dialed in. Now my test kits expire before they are used up...

Some SPS is easy, but I would stay away from the deepwaters as they can be more picky to parameters. Look at trying some from the Montipora family like a capricornis, digitata or spongodes. They are almost all easier to keep corals in the SPS variety.

 

[glb]

Speaking of not making sense it is over kill to test your alk daily and is totally not needed.

I have to disagree here too. I test my alk daily because I have a nano. I also check ph daily. Hopefully a pattern of alk readings will give me a standard amount of Kalk to dose, but so far, I've had to dose differently on different days.

 

[allboutthe305]

Wow. I sure did miss a lot while at work and not being able to access my phone.
First, thanks everyone for the help, opinions, ideas, and priceless experience.

Wish I would of known that about the kessil's before purchasing but to late now. I was just trying to work with my budget at the time and in need of lights. I'll lower my lights down a few inches to see if maybe it helps any.

Obviously from all the previous posts I'm lacking flow, and the correct saltwater and maybe lights.

I think it's definitely a light a flow problem. Those kessils are only good for nano tanks. Anything that's deeper than 16 inches I would not use them on. Plus I have not seen a single tank that has kept nice sps with just kessils. The tanks with nice sps were kessil Halide or kessil t5 combinations. (Please post if you can prove me wrong. I want to have faith for kessils but so far it has been complete disappointment)

As for flow I would shoot for at least 3000 gph not including your return pump if you want to shoot for keeping sps.


Also, I am with @ritter6788 that I would not trust the fish store saltwater. My LFS uses tap water when mixing their saltwater. I would mix your own saltwater since you have the RO/DI unit for topoff. I strongly recommend one of the following salts (Tropic Marin, Fritz RPM, Salinity (As long as you always roll the bucket very well before adding the salt to the RO/DI water), 1/2 IO Reef Crystals 1/2 IO, or Redsea)

Before I increase the flow in my tank will my Zoa's and LPS be okay specially if it's up to 3000gph like previously stated?

What is the best salt to use for making your own saltwater? I've never done it, looked into, or thought about it. I know there's a bunch out there since I've seen them at the LFS but didn't know it was that big of a difference. Are there any easier than others or more stable anything specific?

Testing daily is a great way to see if you have swings or to see the general daily use of additives. I tested daily for years and then stopped since it was so dialed in. Now my test kits expire before they are used up...

Some SPS is easy, but I would stay away from the deepwaters as they can be more picky to parameters. Look at trying some from the Montipora family like a capricornis, digitata or spongodes. They are almost all easier to keep corals in the SPS variety.

I test all parameters every saturday, I check Salinity twice daily (morning / night)(I have 1 gallon evaporation a day so I top off what its lacking). I have a schedule I use for dosing to keep everything pretty stable and it seems to be very stable.

I don't know SPS enough to know if its deepwater or not. But I might give one a try like you suggested.

If it comes down to my lights being the problem, I'll just have to stay away from SPS then because my budget any time soon doesn't include new lights. A new bigger tank will come before new lights do.

Thanks again everyone! I couldn't thank you all enough. It sure has taught me a lot already.

 

[joshbbert]

The large units have reasonable par output. The small ones are designed for nano tanks. Like 16 inches max depth. The 160's are not designed for a deeper tank like a 55g.

If he had some 350's or 360's they would be fine but not 160's.

Ok I can see it being less effective in a deep tank good to know

 

[Akida17th]

My guess is its the kessils, the 160s dont really put to much PAR out. A guy in our local reef club just used a par meter on his at full intensity at got a reading of 135 right under the water line with the kessil 14" above the tank. He did get 300 at 9" but said it started falling off as soon as he started moving the meter sideways. The pH dropping doesn't seem to affect my SPS according to my APEX it goes from 8.4 to 8 throughout the night and been like that for yrs so I wouldnt worry to much about the pH. Id post in your local reef forum/facebook group and see if anyone has a PAR meter you could use. I know PAR isn't everything but definitely using a PAR meter you'd be able to tell if you are putting out enough light for SPS. IME they are going to need 300 to 500 PAR to live/thrive. Also it could be a flow issue because SPS is requires high flow. The Rio 110 at a 4' head pressure is only putting out about 180 gph and the one hydor is more then likely not enough. I have a rio 1100 and hydor 800 on my 20 gallon frag tank, I didnt think it was enough for my SPS frags so I am going to order another GYRE for frag tank

edited***
added another possible reason being not enough flow

I agree.....had the same problems with Kessils on my 55...did great with LPS but no SPS not even easy montis. Purchased a new 93 frameless and upgraded equipment including lighting went to g3 radion pros and can grow anything now. Haven't tried acros yet but my montis love them and i only have the radions at 45%. My blue haddoni loves them too as he wasn't fairing well with the Kessils.

 

[WetWhistle]

I have to disagree here too. I test my alk daily because I have a nano. I also check ph daily. Hopefully a pattern of alk readings will give me a standard amount of Kalk to dose, but so far, I've had to dose differently on different days.

I have a nano as well with sps in it and I still don't test often. I have no issues with coral growth at all and no algae problems. I am not saying people shouldn't test. I have just been at it a long time and I myself don't need to. I can tell by the health of my corals\ tank and what they need just by paying attention. I can tell by the growth rate of the corals, if it slows down I need to change my dose or add. If my nutrients are going up a little I can tell by the growth rate of my algae on my glass and how fast my caulurpa in my sump grows. I am however strict on my weekly water changes to keep things in check and I limit the amount of food input.

People tend to get stuck on numbers in what they think they need for parameters and forget to stop and actually look at what is going on in the tank. I just choose to enjoy my tank instead of tinkering with it all the time is all.

Just different ways of doing things. Some people test and some don't nothing wrong with both approaches.

 

[swk]

I have a nano as well with sps in it and I still don't test often. I have no issues with coral growth at all and no algae problems. I am not saying people shouldn't test. I have just been at it a long time and I myself don't need to. I can tell by the health of my corals\ tank and what they need just by paying attention. I can tell by the growth rate of the corals, if it slows down I need to change my dose or add. If my nutrients are going up a little I can tell by the growth rate of my algae on my glass and how fast my caulurpa in my sump grows. I am however strict on my weekly water changes to keep things in check and I limit the amount of food input.

People tend to get stuck on numbers in what they think they need for parameters and forget to stop and actually look at what is going on in the tank. I just choose to enjoy my tank instead of tinkering with it all the time is all.

Just different ways of doing things. Some people test and some don't nothing wrong with both approaches.

I totally get watching the tank for nutrients and whatnot. That makes perfect sense. But, just to play devils advocate here, how can you tell, just by looking at your tank if you're alk suddenly goes out of whack? Most damage from alk spikes takes a month to really show up ime. I'm talking strictly sps here

 

[glb]

I have a nano as well with sps in it and I still don't test often. I have no issues with coral growth at all and no algae problems. I am not saying people shouldn't test. I have just been at it a long time and I myself don't need to. I can tell by the health of my corals\ tank and what they need just by paying attention. I can tell by the growth rate of the corals, if it slows down I need to change my dose or add. If my nutrients are going up a little I can tell by the growth rate of my algae on my glass and how fast my caulurpa in my sump grows. I am however strict on my weekly water changes to keep things in check and I limit the amount of food input.

People tend to get stuck on numbers in what they think they need for parameters and forget to stop and actually look at what is going on in the tank. I just choose to enjoy my tank instead of tinkering with it all the time is all.

Just different ways of doing things. Some people test and some don't nothing wrong with both approaches.

Agreed. There's all sorts of ways to run a successful tank. I'm not far enough along in the hobby accurately tell what's up with my tank by looking at it, but I'm getting much better. I guess I'm a little ocd because these are my first sps!

 

[glb]

I totally get watching the tank for nutrients and whatnot. That makes perfect sense. But, just to play devils advocate here, how can you tell, just by looking at your tank if you're alk suddenly goes out of whack? Most damage from alk spikes takes a month to really show up ime. I'm talking strictly sps here

That's my fear, especially in a nano. I have noticed I can easily tell if phosphates are creeping up, but not alk yet.

 

[allboutthe305]

But wouldn't it be less effective in the deeper end of the tank? Thats what always confuses me.

Maybe next year I can get a few upgrade tank if my girlfriend allows. Im sure a lot of know how that is.

Thats my thing I have no algae growth. My LPS are doing great. I do the same thing Wetwhistle I enjoy it and play it by eye. But I still do my testing frequently.

Its definitely a hobby you got to enjoy.

 

[WetWhistle]

I totally get watching the tank for nutrients and whatnot. That makes perfect sense. But, just to play devils advocate here, how can you tell, just by looking at your tank if you're alk suddenly goes out of whack? Most damage from alk spikes takes a month to really show up ime. I'm talking strictly sps here

It is good you pay close attention. Nothing wrong with that.

I do a few things to mitigate any large swings. First I keep my hands out of the tank unless I have to. The moment you stick your hand in the tank you set off a set of chemical reactions and alter your tank chemistry. Oil from your skin, soaps, loations and grime from your day to day tasks cause this.
(simplified this as not to be long winded) the smaller the tank volume the bigger the impact.
I stick to a regular schedule for husbandry. If
you keep up on cleaning your skimmer, change pre filters, harvest your chato or caulerpa for nutrient export and do your weekly water changes. This goes a long way at keeping your tank parameters in check. So I rarely get any big swings. I do test if I am troubleshooting or every few months just in case. I have a PH probe but unless something looks wrong I don't bother to look at it.

 

[WetWhistle]

Agreed. There's all sorts of ways to run a successful tank. I'm not far enough along in the hobby accurately tell what's up with my tank by looking at it, but I'm getting much better. I guess I'm a little ocd because these are my first sps!

Till you get to a point where you are comfortable keep the testing up.
A good way to learn your alk needs is figure out what your daily alk needs are. By recording for two weeks what they are daily at the same time. You can then take the averages of that time span of what the alk need were and predict what your needs will be. You can then say I think I need this ammout and then test to see how off or on you are. With practice you get better. If you keep your schedule the same weekly you cut down on the variances that go on and can better predict things.

 

[allboutthe305]

Thats the first thing I learned about saltwater. Keeps hands out at all costs. Only time I put my hands in is to put new frags in acclimation and to put them on rocks.

I change my socks, clean my skimmer, and all the dust from in my cabinet every 2 weeks when I do water changes. Its my tank day.

Till you get to a point where you are comfortable keep the testing up.
A good way to learn your alk needs is figure out what your daily alk needs are. By recording for two weeks what they are daily at the same time. You can then take the averages of that time span of what the alk need were and predict what your needs will be. You can then say I think I need this ammout and then test to see how off or on you are. With practice you get better. If you keep your schedule the same weekly you cut down on the variances that go on and can better predict things.

Thats exactly what I did about 6 months ago. So I know every 2 weeks I dose 1ml of alk and it stays constantly at 9. My calcium and Mag stay up constant. I guess the 3 work together.

 

[WetWhistle]

But wouldn't it be less effective in the deeper end of the tank? Thats what always confuses me.

Maybe next year I can get a few upgrade tank if my girlfriend allows. Im sure a lot of know how that is.

Thats my thing I have no algae growth. My LPS are doing great. I do the same thing Wetwhistle I enjoy it and play it by eye. But I still do my testing frequently.

Its definitely a hobby you got to enjoy.

Is it not more enjoyable to just sit down and look at it? Love it.

It is great you are having success.
Take your time to upgrade. Gives you time to save and time to get experience. It teaches you patience. Fast and reef don't mix.

I like to use my corals to help process
nutrients so I choose wisely. I also set up a really productive sump to help with the food web. If you have a healthy food web you have a healthier tank.

 

[WetWhistle]

Thats the first thing I learned about saltwater. Keeps hands out at all costs. Only time I put my hands in is to put new frags in acclimation and to put them on rocks.

I change my socks, clean my skimmer, and all the dust from in my cabinet every 2 weeks when I do water changes. Its my tank day.



Thats exactly what I did about 6 months ago. So I know every 2 weeks I dose 1ml of alk and it stays constantly at 9. My calcium and Mag stay up constant. I guess the 3 work together.

Excellent. You learned your lessons well. Lol
Nothing more satisfying then then having success in this hobby.