Why the trend to dry rock?

[GeoSquid]

I've started tanks with really Good live rock and dry rock. My current 180 gal I started with all dry rock and most I made from concrete. It seems to have taken my all dry rock tank longer to mature. I don't feel like it started taking off until year two. however, I did collect my own macro algae for the fuge here in socal so I think I got some good bacteria.

 

[WheatToast]

If you had a source and could witness them doing it, that might change; but the government also gave out bobcat hunting licenses where I grew up, sooo....

The most popular Floridian/Gulf live rock sources I know of state they harvest from government lease sites (mined, dry rock dumped in barren regions of the ocean).
Tampa Bay Saltwater
Gulf Live Rock
KP Aquatics
I am unsure about Salty Bottom Reef Company, but I would assume the same is true for them.
Salty Bottom Reef Company

Here are some videos:
Tampa Bay Saltwater
KP Aquatics
Salty Bottom Reef Company

 

[ScottB]

With the aptasia-x you probably killed also 99% of all other micro-organisms in/on the rock, could have started with dry rock anyway.

Curious how you arrived at that assumption. Can you explain? That stuff is pretty benign in my experience.

 

[HawkeyeDJ]

Since it is recommended to dip corals to reduce unwanted hitchhikers, doesn't it make sense to also dip live rock?

 

[minus9]

Since it is recommended to dip corals to reduce unwanted hitchhikers, doesn't it make sense to also dip live rock?

No, no it doesn't. Cure the rock properly and you'll be fine. If you're worried about pests, then hyper-salinity works pretty well and preserves most of the bacteria.

 

[Raideress]

i did dry rock and have GHA, BUT i know i have small tank, no sump, no protein skimmer, i down sized from a 4 foot that had a skimmer, but too big for the 2 foot tank, so slightly over stocked and under stocked in CUC, which im about to fix, ii also over feed, so im not shocked i have GHA, my coral all look happy, even under my dymax lighting Uggg lol

 

[RSnodgrass]

I like the ability to aquascape much more deliberately than live rock would have afforded me.

I also did not have any issues with fish it coral as a result of using 100% dry.

 

[olonmv]

For me, it was the cost. Being a patient dude and wanting to go through the entire process was also a factor as I wanted to learn the ins and outs of the reefing process. Almost a year into it and I’ve learned a ton. It’s an accomplishment to start from literally nothing to having an almost established mature tank.

 

[Forty-Two]

Personally I’d rather have wild caught live rock. I want the bio-diversity - and the mystery guests. Unfortunately it’s not something I can get here anymore. Used Live Rock a plenty - which is what I’m using at approx 50-75% of the rock in the tank - but sadly no wild live rock.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Very interesting discussion. Figured this was worth reviving.

 

[rwreef]

I've used both LR and DR over the years. I have never had an issue with either. Cost and aqua scape is the difference imo. Given time everything in the reef becomes living.

 

[LeftyReefer]

My last tank was started with 100% dry rock and sand and bottled bacteria. I'm happy with how things progressed and turned out so I would probably do it similar again on the next tank. I did not have a bad ugly phase and the tank is still 99% pest free. I do have a few spirobids, but they are pretty much harmless. no other pests that I know of.

On my last tank I used mostly caribsea dry rock, both their base and shelf rocks. Since then, I found Tropic Eden dry rock, which I like much much better. I've since swapped out a bunch of my original carbisea rock and replaced it with the Tropic Eden rock. The TE rock is not porous, so it won't collect detritus/waste like the caribsea rock did, and it looks great. Its my favorite dry rock by far.

if I had to set up another tank now, I'd probably go 90% Tropic Eden rock and maybe 10% established rock to speed things up.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Said it in other threads... I'll never, ever start another tank with dry rock and I'll never cycle a tank by raising ammonia levels ever again... ever. I think dry rock just gives the organisms we don't want a great place to grow without any competition... and we immediately provide it with the nutrients it needs to grow! At least with quality OCEAN CULTURED live rock, the organisms responsible for the "uglies" have to compete for space and nutrients with bacteria, pods, and other organisms... and there is no need for an artificial cycle.

 

[Homey D. Clownfish]

Said it in other threads... I'll never, ever start another tank with dry rock and I'll never cycle a tank by raising ammonia levels ever again... ever. I think dry rock just gives the organisms we don't want a great place to grow without any competition... and we immediately provide it with the nutrients it needs to grow! At least with quality OCEAN CULTURED live rock, the organisms responsible for the "uglies" have to compete for space and nutrients with bacteria, pods, and other organisms... and there is no need for an artificial cycle.

I agree. My tanks in the early 2000’s all had Marshall Islands live rock. It was lightweight, porous, unique shapes, and grew some great coralline algae. After a 15 year absence from the hobby, I had to decide dry vs. live. After reading some hobbyists problems with dry and nuisance algae, it was really a no-brainer. I will always choose the natural biodiversity. Got some premium live rock coming from KP Aquatics this week and I am excited to start my new tank!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Said it in other threads... I'll never, ever start another tank with dry rock and I'll never cycle a tank by raising ammonia levels ever again... ever. I think dry rock just gives the organisms we don't want a great place to grow without any competition... and we immediately provide it with the nutrients it needs to grow! At least with quality OCEAN CULTURED live rock, the organisms responsible for the "uglies" have to compete for space and nutrients with bacteria, pods, and other organisms... and there is no need for an artificial cycle.

What "artificial "cycle do you mean?
What is the role of the "ugies" and the "goodies". At what piont the "goodies" become part of the "ugies" and visa versa.?What defines the "uglies"? Aren't they all needed?
How a piece of real live rock will provide the nutrients to grow? Keeping it alive and kicking it should consume nutrients. Most probably fresh live rock will provide a lot of organic matter due to dying off, producing DOC ?
In nature a coral is able to manage the nutrient supply of it's holobiont in function of the needs by excreting organic matter, mucus; and other nutrients. The ability to do so depends of DOC available in the environment and the growth rates of compeditors for the same nutrients. On a natural reef the inorganic nutrient levels are very low but the supply is unlimited.
If one puts a piece of healty corals on a piece of sterile dry rock or one puts the same piece of coral on a piece of so called " live rock" , on what rock the coral's holobiont will have the most chance to develope and establish itself, able to manage its own nutrient supply?

 

[ReefGeezer]

What "artificial "cycle do you mean?

I mean adding ammonia to 2 ppm in order to encourage the growth of autotrophic nitrifying bacteria.

What is the role of the "ugies" and the "goodies". At what piont the "goodies" become part of the "ugies" and visa versa.?What defines the "uglies"? Aren't they all needed?

Word play. You know exactly what I mean. I'll stipulate that there are forms of diatoms, cyanobacteria, and dinoflagellates in every healthy system. I just don't want to start a nursery for the forms that tend to muck up a perfectly good looking reef tank..

How a piece of real live rock will provide the nutrients to grow? Keeping it alive and kicking it should consume nutrients. Most probably fresh live rock will provide a lot of organic matter due to dying off, producing DOC ?

If you read my article, I advise that tanks be started with what is referred to in the live rock industry as "base" live rock. It contains life required to establish the system but not the more complex life that is prone to die-off. I also advise a process I "borrowed" from @Lasse i.e. adding fish a feeding VERY lightly to supply small amounts of ammonia to maintain the life on the "Base" live rock.

In nature a coral is able to manage the nutrient supply of it's holobiont in function of the needs by excreting organic matter, mucus; and other nutrients. The ability to do so depends of DOC available in the environment and the growth rates of compeditors for the same nutrients. On a natural reef the inorganic nutrient levels are very low but the supply is unlimited.
If one puts a piece of healty corals on a piece of sterile dry rock or one puts the same piece of coral on a piece of so called " live rock" , on what rock the coral's holobiont will have the most chance to develope and establish itself, able to manage its own nutrient supply?

Ii don't believe the substrate the coral is attached to affects its evolved biological processes (holobiont). I also believe if it did, the ceramic frag plug and epoxy I use would insulate it from the rock anyway.

 

[Jubei2006]

Have you guys been watching the new biome series from BRS? Been very good so far. Really enjoyed the information, and we are getting some actual testing with controls, challenges to each experiment, and results with genetic diversity testing on each setup.

Biome and Cycling - Bulk Reef Supply

Ryan and the BRStv crew dive deep into the biome of our reef aquariums to get answers about the ugly stage and further advance our understanding of what

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Rmckoy]

I've used both LR and DR over the years. I have never had an issue with either. Cost and aqua scape is the difference imo. Given time everything in the reef becomes living.

I agree .. eventually everything becomes live .
but the question is how long ?

for example : if you have a 100 gal setup with 100lbs of rocks .
Can you remove 50% of these rocks and add to a new system and call it fully cycled instantly ?

 

[ReefGeezer]

I agree .. eventually everything becomes live .
but the question is how long ?

for example : if you have a 100 gal setup with 100lbs of rocks .
Can you remove 50% of these rocks and add to a new system and call it fully cycled instantly ?

If by "cycled" you mean capable of processing ammonia to nitrate, then yes it would as long as the original tank was capable of doing so. It gets a little more complicated if you mean something more.

I agree that eventually everything becomes live. However, I think the difference in the makeup of that life. It is about competition early in the life cycle of the tank. You can't choose what life populates the tank if you put a relatively sterile substrate in water and provide excess nutrients for growth. If the life that is established first is not of your liking, it will be hard other, possibly more beneficial life, to get established. I think by using live rock and sand, you can help choose the life that gets established first so that less desirable life can't compete and never gets a foothold.

In your example, taking 50 lbs. of rock from an existing tank could prove successful if the the original tank was populated with a diverse group of desirable life that, while not the same as live rock and sand, are at least capable of performing similarly. It might not be successful if the life in the original tank was subpar.

 

[rwreef]

I agree .. eventually everything becomes live .
but the question is how long ?

for example : if you have a 100 gal setup with 100lbs of rocks .
Can you remove 50% of these rocks and add to a new system and call it fully cycled instantly ?

Between live sand and DR that is now live you would be off to a great start for beneficial bacteria and be able to process ammonia. I typically "seed" bio media in my DT to give new tank setups a jump start.