Will nitrifying bacteria survive a .007 drop in specific gravity?

[BigJohnny]

I cycled a qt for some new fish from live aquaria, and accidentally set the the tank at the divers den 1.025 instead of quality marine 1.018. Thankfully, I realized this about 1 hr ago, and my fish just got here.

I just dropped the salinity about .004 in one go, and will do the last .003 over the next hour. I would have done it slower but i want to get the fish in there asap and my garage is very cold/all 3 spare heaters are keeping the qt warm so im adding cold RODI which means i have to let the tank temp recover (dropped from 78 to 76.5 on that .004 drop). Do you think this will have any measurable impact on my biofilter? I have an ac30 with ceramic media and a sponge + a 4" seeded sponge filter. Also added biospira in the beginning before cycling with ammonia, and then biospira again last night. This has always worked for me in the past but I've never had to drop it this far.

Thoughts? I have ammonia alert badge and will test/closely monitor, but hope someone can put me at ease. I know bacteria can survive in crazy conditions, but not sure about the fast swing.

Thanks,

J

 

[HiddenUser]

I had a similar deal where I dropped my QT from 1.025 to 1.018 for my LA shipment last week. I did mine within a matter of half an hour.

Everything seems to be fine, my Ammonia Alert badge still indicates that it's safe and I still have a TON of pods all over the place in my QT...I thought pods wouldn't survive copper, but somehow they survived copper and a pretty big salinity change as well.

They're quite plentiful and my Leopard Wrasse and Anthias in QT are loving it from what I can see...

 

[BigJohnny]

I had a similar deal where I dropped my QT from 1.025 to 1.018 for my LA shipment last week. I did mine within a matter of half an hour.

Everything seems to be fine, my Ammonia Alert badge still indicates that it's safe and I still have a TON of pods all over the place in my QT...I thought pods wouldn't survive copper, but somehow they survived copper and a pretty big salinity change as well.

They're quite plentiful and my Leopard Wrasse and Anthias in QT are loving it from what I can see...

Thanks, good to hear. What size qt, how many fish and did you use seeded media or bottled bacteria, "instant cycle" or traditional, etc.

 

[HiddenUser]

I have 6 Lyretail Anthias and one really small Leopard Wrasse in my QT which is a 38 gallon AIO system. I leave it up and running so it was cycled prior to adding fish. I just got done doing a Copper treatment on a Foxface as well before I put in this new batch of fish.

 

[brandon429]

microbiology behind your request:

the bacteria in dormancy or just floating in a water solution are more affected by changes than those you earned in true timed cycling, which is biofilm modulated.

those films will insulate your bacteria from all kinds of things the bottled stuff might not like.

one of the main reasons cycling threads get such good hearty debate is because people like to clip and post snippets from dr tims bottle bac instructions that makes bacteria seem so weak some nitrite or some ammonia at 6 ppm will kill or hold back growth/performance

maybe on a cold dead lab microscope slide

but not in a gel matrix, the stuff we do with matrices and non recycling constitutes every peroxide thread on the web, every skip cycling thread, and every how did they set up tanks at MACNA so fast thread.


depending on the locus of the bacteria, on rocks or in sterile water as individual cells or very small aggregates, bacteria will seem bulletproof or delicate.

A classic mis step in this arrangement was when scientist Disc-1 from the internet used his lab to analyze some vibrio cells, VIBRIO, in a water solution using peroxide at one mil per ten gallons, the vibrio died, and to the world he then claimed peroxide was killing our biofilters. That was when peroxide use was rather new.

how many countless tens of thousands of tanks are actively using peroxide right now? eighty thousand? two hundred thousand? not sure, but ammonia spikes are zero. if we cared what vibrio did outside of a gel matrix there'd be no mass peroxide usage, and it is massive.

context of stress testing matters much

 

[BigJohnny]

microbiology behind your request:

the bacteria in dormancy or just floating in a water solution are more affected by changes than those you earned in true timed cycling, which is biofilm modulated.

those films will insulate your bacteria from all kinds of things the bottled stuff might not like.

one of the main reasons cycling threads get such good hearty debate is because people like to clip and post snippets from dr tims bottle bac instructions that makes bacteria seem so weak some nitrite or some ammonia at 6 ppm will kill or hold back growth/performance

maybe on a cold dead lab microscope slide

but not in a gel matrix, the stuff we do with matrices and non recycling constitutes every peroxide thread on the web, every skip cycling thread, and every how did they set up tanks at MACNA so fast thread.


depending on the locus of the bacteria, on rocks or in sterile water as individual cells or very small aggregates, bacteria will seem bulletproof or delicate.

A classic mis step in this arrangement was when scientist Disc-1 from the internet used his lab to analyze some vibrio cells, VIBRIO, in a water solution using peroxide at one mil per ten gallons, the vibrio died, and to the world he then claimed peroxide was killing our biofilters. That was when peroxide use was rather new.

how many countless tens of thousands of tanks are actively using peroxide right now? eighty thousand? two hundred thousand? not sure, but ammonia spikes are zero. if we cared what vibrio did outside of a gel matrix there'd be no mass peroxide usage, and it is massive.

context of stress testing matters much

Thanks for the post. Where do you get the idea that the bacteria from biospira is only in dormancy or floating in a water solution rather than attached to surfaces and\or "biomodulated" like that from "true timed cycling"? Of course initially but not after cycling with ammonia. Or are you only referring to the bottle I added last night\freshly added in general?

Regardless, are you basically saying there's no way to predict whether or not the rapid salinity drop will have an impact?

 

[brandon429]

Fun to discuss bacteria. What they allow or not sets our care boundaries.

In our cycling thread here below I had linked scholar studies that shows how biofilms encase nitrifiers after a cycle is complete. We use that basis to do harsh things to our reefs: peroxide work, sandbed work (cleaning) skip cycle tank cleaning etc. it states in one section below how ~300ppm ammonia is tolerated in sludges...yet bottle bac instructions state how levels over 5 ppm can suppress nitrifiers ability/stalled cycle risk.

Post 130
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/page-7

I myself have accidentally filled my whole pico reef with freshwater, by accident, from a planted tank bottle mix up...that's in older posts. The system doesn't recycle because the filtration has an inherent protective layer. That's a complete freshwater fill, harsher than your range-I caught it in time, lost no coral, lost some brittle stars.

Bottled bac instructions mentions nitrite tolerances in play. Live rock isn't harmed by a nitrite spike at all, we get those in dirty sandbed threads. Delicate is pre biofilm; bulletproof is post biofilm.

We also have extreme drain testing in my pico reef...I leave it totally drained commonly for 20 minutes at a time then refill without recycling to document adaptivity. Online pages from fritz.com say nitrifiers can't stand emersion, they sell bottled bac not live rock.


If bottled bac had slicks, the bac we pay for speed cycling use would not transfer out of the bottle when we dump it in our tanks-it would stick to the bottle walls like an aquarium filter. Qt and fish breeders know they can rinse their foam filters routinely without losing the ability to nitrify.

I know they have refrigerated live strains of cycling bac too...direct active colony transfers with a quicker expiration date than others. Just pointing out how bottled bac lack armor. They need refrigeration and our actual tank bacteria do not, why?

there's easy ways to subject them to different stress tests, compared to a chunk of live rock


in bottled solutions, they took time to isolate strains of nitrifiers from the slicks and competing strains that make up the microbial world and putting that clean solution back into a world of contamination takes about 30 days to coat in matrix, per cycling charts we can see online.

Will bet both your bottled bac and the tank won't lose any bac from that low of a shift, but any filtration bac stuck to the tank by completing a cycle 100% will not lose any. I'm a thousand times harder on my own reef in six other ways.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/

Relying on biofilms makes that thread run without a single loss. I don't think any other forum has a guaranteed no recycle sandbed access thread, biofilms allow that.


another hallmark of the truly cycled reef is no frequency, no volume of water changes can strip its filtration ability. The goods are locked in.

What happens if you do a 100% water change on day -2- of a dr tims cycle, and you only replace with clean saltwater? You just removed bacteria and feed before retaining matrices were set, so you'll extend the cycle out to unassisted timeframes which can be in excess of a month. We had ways to infer protective matting with oddly simple tricks like dumping out a bottle bac solution, rinsing out the bottle, refilling with water, and then trying to get that new solution to complete a 12 day cycle like dr tims can.

 

[BigJohnny]

Fun to discuss bacteria. What they allow or not sets our care boundaries.

In our cycling thread here below I had linked scholar studies that shows how biofilms encase nitrifiers after a cycle is complete. We use that basis to do harsh things to our reefs: peroxide work, sandbed work (cleaning) skip cycle tank cleaning etc. it states in one section below how ~300ppm ammonia is tolerated in sludges...yet bottle bac instructions state how levels over 5 ppm can suppress nitrifiers ability/stalled cycle risk.

Post 130
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/page-7

I myself have accidentally filled my whole pico reef with freshwater, by accident, from a planted tank bottle mix up...that's in older posts. The system doesn't recycle because the filtration has an inherent protective layer. That's a complete freshwater fill, harsher than your range-I caught it in time, lost no coral, lost some brittle stars.

Bottled bac instructions mentions nitrite tolerances in play. Live rock isn't harmed by a nitrite spike at all, we get those in dirty sandbed threads. Delicate is pre biofilm; bulletproof is post biofilm.

We also have extreme drain testing in my pico reef...I leave it totally drained commonly for 20 minutes at a time then refill without recycling to document adaptivity. Online pages from fritz.com say nitrifiers can't stand emersion, they sell bottled bac not live rock.


If bottled bac had slicks, none would transfer out of the water when we dump it in our tanks it would stick to the bottle walls in my opinion.

I know they have refrigerated live strains of cycling bac too...direct active colony transfers with a quicker expiration date than others. Just pointing out how bottled bac lack armor. I bet there's easy ways to subject them to different stress tests, compared to a chunk of live rock


in bottled solutions, they took time to isolate strains of nitrifiers from the slicks and competing strains that make up the microbial world and putting that clean solution back into a world of contamination takes about 30 days to coat in matrix, per cycling charts we can see online.

I bet both your bottled bac and the tank won't lose any bac from that low of a shift, but any filtration bac stuck to the tank by completing a cycle 100% will not lose any. I'm a thousand times harder on my own reef in six other ways.

all of the things you are saying about bottled bacteria make sense are only true initially IMO. The warnings about 5ppm nitrite etc are for the initial cycle, not after its complete. Its not like using bottled bacteria prevents the "armor" processes you are referring to. I don't see why a new tank with no bacteria wouldn't take those 30 days to coat as well.

Also how important really is the matrix if its processing ammonia and nitrite (sand rinsing aside). Obviously its relevant to my situation since its a immature bioflter subjected to stress, but peoples tanks don't normally drop .007 S.G. in 3 hrs during the first 30 days.

Interesting stuff my friend. Always like reading your posts. Keep feeding that brain.

 

[BigJohnny]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/

Relying on biofilms makes that thread run without a single loss. I don't think any other forum has a guaranteed no recycle sandbed access thread, biofilms allow that.


another hallmark of the truly cycled reef is no frequency, no volume of water changes can strip its filtration ability. The goods are locked in.

What happens if you do a 100% water change on day -2- of a dr tims cycle, and you only replace with clean saltwater? You just removed bacteria and feed before retaining matrices were set, so you'll extend the cycle out to unassisted timeframes which can be in excess of a month. We had ways to infer protective matting well without the google links.

Right but if you did a 100% water change on day 2 of a traditional cycle it wouldn't get you there any faster lol, because your already unassisted anyway. Plus who does 100% water changes on day 2 of a cycle?! The madness! I get what your saying though.

 

[brandon429]

We agree mostly I think really. I'm saying you -can't- change water on day 2 if you wanted to...but we can run a whole thread off full water changes if we just wait till after cycle time as that matrix comes from nature, not the bottle bac and requires some time underwater to grow. Contamination from nature makes the biofilm, the nitrifiers get mixed in given a little submersion time.

*those bottle bac do become part of the slicks agreed, but in the bottle they were not encased in biofilm due to myriad ways I went back and edited in.


Lemme show you one reason that matrix matters: the fallow test

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/383510-ammonia-processing-rate-of-established-tank/

That matrix gets feed when we don't provide any. Bottled bac has an expiry date, this dude did a two year fallow run then digest tested at 2 ppm as if he'd fed the whole time. This is my top three fav threads of all time right above. Who bothers to run a two year fallow test for the heckuvit.

Ultimate proof of benefits of slime matrix: you never have to feed established bacteria. 99% of people on a reef board would disagree with that, and one percent have worked in microbiology.

 

[BigJohnny]

We agree mostly I think really. Lemme show you one reason that matrix matters: the fallow test

That matrix gets feed when we don't provide any. Bottled bac has an expiry date, this dude did a two year fallow run then digest tested at 2 ppm as if he'd fed the whole time. This is my top three fav threads of all time:

For sure, just discussing all angles.

I know it matters but really only in extreme situations and tanks started with bottled bacteria will have those matrixes in 30 day. So dump it in and don't do anything stupid for 30 days lol.

Did a guy really not feed or have livestock for 2 years and his biofilter was still good enough to process 2ppm in 24hrs?

 

[BigJohnny]

We agree mostly I think really. I'm saying you -can't- change water on day 2 if you wanted to...but we can run a whole thread off full water changes if we just wait till after cycle time as that matrix comes from nature, not the bottle bac and requires some time underwater to grow. Contamination from nature makes the biofilm, the nitrifiers get mixed in given a little submersion time.

*those bottle bac do become part of the slicks agreed, but in the bottle they were not encased in biofilm due to myriad ways I went back and edited in.


Lemme show you one reason that matrix matters: the fallow test

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/383510-ammonia-processing-rate-of-established-tank/

That matrix gets feed when we don't provide any. Bottled bac has an expiry date, this dude did a two year fallow run then digest tested at 2 ppm as if he'd fed the whole time. This is my top three fav threads of all time right above. Who bothers to run a two year fallow test for the heckuvit.

Ultimate proof of benefits of slime matrix: you never have to feed established bacteria. 99% of people on a reef board would disagree with that, and one percent have worked in microbiology.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the tank in the beginning of the thread was set up for 2 years not fallow for 2 years and the bins that were running for 2 years were fallow but periodically dosed with ammonia? Still crazy considering the speed at which it processed the ammonia and the lack of frequency of dosing in those bins. Not the same as nothing for 2 years though.

 

[brandon429]

I'd have to go re read from what I recall he only kept them wet, dandelion, not the other posters replicating the thread. Even if he did dose I think the periods he didn't are the best fallow testing I'd heard of, they were very long in between. Still a good illustration of feed access during times we think our withholding would matter.

 

[BigJohnny]

I'd have to go re read from what I recall he only kept them wet, dandelion, not the other posters replicating the thread. Even if he did dose I think the periods he didn't are the best fallow testing I'd heard of, they were very long in between. Still a good illustration of feed access during times we think our withholding would matter.

Definitely, very cool.

 

[Big E]

To answer your initial question..........it may depress the population short term but the fish aren't going to produce enough ammonia build up till about 2-3 days later. By that time the bacteria will have adjusted.

Some of this is dependent on how mature your filter is as well as how many fish you're putting in this QT system.

That ammonia badge would be enough to quell any concerns.

 

[BigJohnny]

To answer your initial question..........it may depress the population short term but the fish aren't going to produce enough ammonia build up till about 2-3 days later. By that time the bacteria will have adjusted.

Some of this is dependent on how mature your filter is as well as how many fish you're putting in this QT system.

That ammonia badge would be enough to quell any concerns.

Thanks boss