Will someone please explain?

[Nomadic1]

Well said. On a local forum, someone bought a $400 booger frag. I asked if anyone had a colony (a true colony of it), and what said colony looked like. Of course, one of the local booger frag purveyor stores had to put his two cents in, stating that "it's such an expensive coral, there's no one who has a colony." I nearly fell out...all frags come from a a colony originally.

 

[TomatoSauceTy]

Well said. On a local forum, someone bought a $400 booger frag. I asked if anyone had a colony (a true colony of it), and what said colony looked like. Of course, one of the local booger frag purveyor stores had to put his two cents in, stating that "it's such an expensive coral, there's no one who has a colony." I nearly fell out...all frags come from a a colony originally.

We live in a sad age of display tanks that look like frag tanks...and yet people compliment each other on it; TAKE MY MONEY!

 

[PeterErc]

come on, you can frag a frag, everyone is doing it!!

nice thread, love the topic and the "rant"

I am not willing to participate in the "hype", keep up the good work

 

[twon8]

I felt this way years ago, and it led to a long absence that has only recently ended. While the trademark names have changed its still the same ridiculous pricing especially on recently imported wild corals. Charging 5x more for a frag than they paid for the colony seems to be a common practice.

 

[Andreww65]

woot woot

 

[uniquecorals]

To some this hobby is just a ******* contest to see who can spend the most money. What is funny to me is that one vendor can have a coral, name it something, post a super saturated pic and get $500 for a booger frag. While another vendor has the exact same coral (species and coloration) and sell it for $50. Let's get real for a minute.... one vendor doesn't have the only specimen of that coral on the planet. Even with the great lengths you guys had to go through to get that purple monster there's still lots of them out there. (Not taking a shot at you guys, just making that point)

Agreed...IMHO most of the "crazy" varieties that everyone goes gaga about are just color variations on common corals...maybe not even permanent color variations. They're scarce because it may just be one specimen that displayed the color, for all we know....And yes, the PM is out there...just not well-circulated at the moment. We're stoked on it because we love the coral, and because we have a complete record of its life history/chain of custody, from collection to propagation...which is really cool!

 

[uniquecorals]

As usual I fully agree with Scott. I hate small frags. They have much higher mortality rate, lose color much easier, ship poorly, and honestly just make customers disappointed in the end. (Mostly talking about Acros here but it applies to other corals also).

I really feel one of the key problems is "Hey that $300 frag I got 3 months ago has a new branch! I can cut it as soon as I can fit the clippers around it!" I think those doing this as a "business plan" will be shocked when in the long run they end up losing both the "mother colony (ha!)" and frag more often then it pays them to cut 1/3" nubs. Fragging is hard on corals and if you have any issue with the tank that may not be apparent, it will quickly become apparent after cutting your corals and exposing them to disease/infection/stress.

I'm still sitting on frags I purchased a year ago, refusing to cut them until they really are "critical mass". The extra sale isn't worth the risk to me. I'm in this for the long haul, and to please my customers.

Right on target! That's yet another reason why microfrags are bad in the long run...

 

[uniquecorals]

My favorite thing to do is buy LE corals, grow it out and when it's big enough to actually frag sell twice the size at half the price. I know that by myself I won't change this part of the hobby, but really the price of some of this is ridiculous. If I can get some LE in my friends hands and at not so LE of a price, then I did well

Love it...that is my sentiment- get the "rare" stuff, grow the heck out of it...and distribute good-sized frags at a realistic price!

 

[uniquecorals]

I'm really enjoying this thread as it's something that is always brought up when I get together with my reefing friends. The Facebook groups are a mess with the over saturated pictures and the hype. Honestly, I love it too when people call out a seller for an all blue pic of a coral. Constantly you see people trying to rename a known coral as a new LE/rare coral and charge an arm and a leg for it. Just the other day I saw someone post a gold maul zoa with a crazy new name and was able to get around $200 in an auction for it. That's just nuts and sad!
I feel these crazy prices and smaller frags are a result of an influx of new people into the hobby that see it as a way to make money instead of enjoying it as a hobby. It's seems like everyone is setting up a frag tank now-a-days with the intention of selling frags. Let me say though, that I see no problem with selling. I do it every now and then to get cash for new coral and as a way to hide new purchases from my wife haha. But this trend of buying the new "it" coral to later chop it up and sometimes sell it for a higher price than what they paid is just so sad and frustrating to see.
Did you guys read the thread that WWC posted regarding a new polyp they wanted to release? Someone chimed in that the name they were trying to debut it with was already established in the hobby for another zoa. He didn't knock the zoa, price(way to high IMO), or the vendor and people were all over him. I'm a taxonomist(I identify aquatic inverts and fish) by trade and I agree with the person letting the vendor know the name has been established for another zoa. This is a big issue I see in the hobby recently as well. People try to rename something that is already been around as something exciting and new and charge and outlandish price for it. New people coming into the hobby don't know any better and end up getting burned by paying a lot for an essentially common coral.

I am not familiar with the thread you mentioned, but I am often amused at the Zoa thing...I mean, if you import wild rocks of the stuff from Vietnam, there are literally hundreds of variations of morphs that have been in the hobby for some time...A vendor or reefer isolates and propagates once of these, gives it a name, and confusion ensues- because someone in another state found a similar morph last year under similar circumstances and named it something else...and Zoas seem to morph colors over time as well...I wouldn't be surprised if every crazy one we have in the hobby is a variation of say, 3-4 dozen "root varieties" that are common in nature...What an ID mess the zoa market is!

I agree that it's great to see lots of people getting in on the act and selling propagated corals. I just find it endlessly amusing to watch all of the hype and craziness that ensues when someone releases a "new" coral...Honestly, any coral vendor with access to good maricultured stock will receive dozens of potentially "LE-type" corals in a given random box...seriously...If a hipster went through a typical shipment upon arrival, he or she would probably have a heart attack seeing all of the insanely colored A. tenuis or Millie variants, many of which will lose color in just a few days, perhaps only to regain it after months of careful care- or possibly never...The real danger to the everyday hobbyist comes in with the chop shop guys who walk off the tips from a newly imported coral and establish it as a new "strain" or whatever within days and start to sell off their $35 "mother colony" bit by bit for $300 for a 1/2" axial corallite or whatever...Now, seems like we see less and less of this, but still I think a lot of small coral specimens are simply chopped on demand into little fragments to feed the hype market. You just rarely see a full-on colony of many of the most hyped ultra-trendy varieties...Yikes.

 

[karm40]

It's hard to argue with any of this. It would be great to hear from someone with an opposing opinion. Is it an addiction, gambling that the frag will turn into gold? What is the draw? I understand the lure of owning something rare but, at this point in the hobby, having seen outrageously priced frags drop precipitously after a few years, I can't justify spending big bucks on small frags, especially when there are still so many amazing corals for fair prices.

 

[Pete polyp]

I do get a kick out of "mother colonies" anymore when they're a half frag plug of zoa or a tenuis that has 3 tips. I guess there's different kinds of collectors out there though. Personally I want my tank to have full size mature colonies for the long run, the bigger the better.

 

[uniquecorals]

I tried moving some corals out and I couldn't even get 1/4 of the price I paid for them even AFTER them growing! *neon green ring blasto, rainbow lobo, button scoly, acans etc...*

I think people care more how their corals look in pictures rather than how they look in their tanks and it's sad! There is no way in hell people receive corals from several of these sellers on these sites and it looks exactly like that in their tanks. It's a butt kiss butt world.

After I saw that post by WWC I have lost all respect for them and learned how this business really is! [HASHTAG]#lineage[/HASHTAG] LOL!!! I find it ironic they had a plate coral that was 100% identical at MACNA that I previously bought from FragJunkies*worst experience* which I obviously never received...


On the plus side, I have bought a small rainbow meat coral from Unique Corals that has grown and I'm extremely pleased with. It was expensive, but it had amazing color and I guarantee if any other vendor had that coral it would have been at least $200 more.

I am often confused about the "lineage" thing myself...I mean, coral comes from the ocean, and it may be propagated in captivity, etc....but the "lineage" really goes back to the wild, right? It's not like fancy guppies, Koi, or Discus, where you actually have controlled genetic work and "breeding" for variations...Fragging and propagating corals is part art. part science, and some luck, IMHO. You can't just turn a green coral orange...and if you can, I'd sure like to talk to you!

Glad you like the coral. Obviously, we had little to do with the coral other than source it, handle it well, and care for it until you purchased it...But like many coral vendors, we tried our best to represent what it really looked like in pics, and charged a price that reflected some degree of economic reality, as opposed to a hype-induced insane price based on "what everyone charges" or some other ridiculous notion.

And as for appearance, it's subjective, really, but I understand your point. To me, seeing even "common" corals in a beautiful reef tank always makes me more excited than a small and uber trendy specimen in an ugly display. Again, to each his own- some gardeners like growing potted plants as opposed to a garden, so there is a terrestrial analog there...

If you follow my rants, you know we beat the heck out of photoshopping and such over the past couple of years...Everyone who is a serious coral/reef hobbyists seems to hate it. Problem is, with many new selling channels and newer collectors arriving on scene, who are perhaps unfamiliar with the "reality" of what the corals actually should look like, this "practice" has found a new and very fertile home in the FB fray, etc...Nothing new, just a new location for the absurdity...

 

[uniquecorals]

It's hard to argue with any of this. It would be great to hear from someone with an opposing opinion. Is it an addiction, gambling that the frag will turn into gold? What is the draw? I understand the lure of owning something rare but, at this point in the hobby, having seen outrageously priced frags drop precipitously after a few years, I can't justify spending big bucks on small frags, especially when there are still so many amazing corals for fair prices.

I will wager that many people who buy frags like this will simply tell you they enjoy the acquisition of rare or cool stuff. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that...I suppose people get the thrill of the hunt, or being "first", or whatever...My only fear, as a lifelong hobbyist, is that this type of mindset will become more of a mainstream "standard", essentially supporting non sustainable "chop shop 2.0"-type practices for bringing in and distributing corals with the intent of cranking out quick huge profit and little long-term propagation or enjoyment...I suppose my fear is just that- fear...But my fascination for this phenomenon is huge! And. apparently, many of you are curious about this stuff, too!

 

[Bob Vance]

Agreed, 10 years ago I could go into the local LFS and for $5 they would give me a bag full of broken tips of sps, loose shrooms and zoas.
Now I just read on another thread of a company that's naming their own zoas a selling them for $300 for two heads.
I can already see my tuxedo urchin picking them up and dropping them somewhere else in the tank to never be seen again.

 

[atoll]

Capitalism, greed, market forces and one-upmanship all come to mind. Some might even be disappointed if and when the coral grows out as they can't then say "I paid $300 for that extremely rare micro dot you see there" The mind boggles at it all.
I can value just about anything that can be bought quite easily.
Value = The most amount anybody is willing to pay for something no matter what somebody selling might tell you it's worth, simples.

 

[tripdad]

"Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but do you mean "doing work at low prices" meaning they cut corners etc, or they are selling corals under their "normal" price? A guy selling out of his mothers basement is no different than a brick and mortar store; you can justify it all you want, but they are the same. Retail shops can't survive properly without a maintenance service which is why everyone tries to squeeze every penny out of the corals they buy."
What I was saying is if you don't have to pay the same expenses then you can sell for less. For instance, if you don't plan on making a life long business out of this, just get in for a year or two and get out, then things like establishing a retirement plan, health plan( maybe a relic), continuing education for your staff, vacation pay for staff, etc. then you don't need to make as much, therefore you can sell for less. This creates a market problem as it disrupts, but in the end is unsustainable. In the meantime it has to be dealt with by others in the market.

 

[uniquecorals]

"Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but do you mean "doing work at low prices" meaning they cut corners etc, or they are selling corals under their "normal" price? A guy selling out of his mothers basement is no different than a brick and mortar store; you can justify it all you want, but they are the same. Retail shops can't survive properly without a maintenance service which is why everyone tries to squeeze every penny out of the corals they buy."
What I was saying is if you don't have to pay the same expenses then you can sell for less. For instance, if you don't plan on making a life long business out of this, just get in for a year or two and get out, then things like establishing a retirement plan, health plan( maybe a relic), continuing education for your staff, vacation pay for staff, etc. then you don't need to make as much, therefore you can sell for less. This creates a market problem as it disrupts, but in the end is unsustainable. In the meantime it has to be dealt with by others in the market.

I'm all for market disruption, as readers of my rants know. But I think you hit it on the head when you used the word "unsustainable" in the mix...Sure, there will always be those who are willing to pay breathtaking prices for corals that are available for a fraction of the price, but that's not the "basis" for a sustainable market. I just always thought that if something is rare, beautiful, and people like it- aspirational, even- you make it so it's more widely available and as affordable as expenses permit. I mean, even Mercedes gets this and markets cars that are in the "very affordable" price range for a lot of people. Quality can be maintained without the need to sell people a microchip at a ransom price, IMHO.

 

[tautog83]

yea some people are just in it for the the trend part.. whats the point of buying a $200 frag when your tank is covered in algae and in general looks like crap . i dont care if your zoos are a million dollars a polyp if your tank looks like swamp thing , you have failed. As you said scott theres beauty in some of the most easy to care for corals , sometimess its just how its displayed that can be breathtaking. lets face it dealing with live animals, different lighting , and nutrients, corals can develop a different color hue all together. I think you hit it on the head scott when you said if people saw how wild colonies came in , they would be drooling and throwing money at you in a second. People dont realize it may take a year or potentially never to get that coral the same color or even survive synthetic saltwater

 

[pciscott]

This is a Unique hobby for sure Scott, Ebay price setting or fixing is pretty common, you don't think people have friends bidding them up??? Also a postage stamp to a collector is not going to die with a temp spike or rogue fish. This collector thing makes me laugh, do you think a insurance company would insure your coral collection I have sold some of my best pieces because people are willing to pay insane amounts of money for perfect specimens. This is because I have patience something that is needed in this hobby and I can grow another frag. A booger frag though that comes from a saturated photo on a frag plug with bryopsis and no color because it does not ship well is not going to have long term marketability???

I have the original Copps purple monster and have been meaning to get a frag of Jakes Purple to see how they compare.

I hope to have some free time next month to make a trip to Unique, see you around.

 

[uniquecorals]

This is a Unique hobby for sure Scott, Ebay price setting or fixing is pretty common, you don't think people have friends bidding them up??? Also a postage stamp to a collector is not going to die with a temp spike or rogue fish. This collector thing makes me laugh, do you think a insurance company would insure your coral collection I have sold some of my best pieces because people are willing to pay insane amounts of money for perfect specimens. This is because I have patience something that is needed in this hobby and I can grow another frag. A booger frag though that comes from a saturated photo on a frag plug with bryopsis and no color because it does not ship well is not going to have long term marketability???

I have the original Copps purple monster and have been meaning to get a frag of Jakes Purple to see how they compare.

I hope to have some free time next month to make a trip to Unique, see you around.

Absolutely a great point! Patience is the key ingredient to reef keeping, business, and just about everything...And an unshakable belief that what you're doing is the right thing...I think that if more reefers believed in themselves and their ability to grow corals, less would market these ridiculous microfrags; rather, you'd see respectably-sized pieces at decent prices, actually encrusted and adapted to growth in a reef tank. Here's to hoping!