Wormwood Treatment for AEFW

[Skibum]

Understood about the patience part. But I lost so many colonies to these worms it didn't make sense to keep dosing 2x weekly for essentially big frags. In a nutshell, one should / must have a frag QT for acros. I don't have the space right now, but even a 25 gallon system would be worth it. Those worms are so destructive.

 

[Sebae]

Is anyone refrigerating the wormwood solution or is it fine sitting out?

 

[Skibum]

Still battling these things. I thought I was rid of them, and most likely it was my fault. I stopped dipping regularly and noticed a colony was infested so dipped all acros (all on plugs). Going for weekly dips with Coral RX now. Also going with KZ stop ( have some left over so why not). Double dose 4ML 2x daily. We'll see what happens. I understand that that worms once hatched need to feed at least within 5-7 days. I'm hoping to interrupt this cycle.

 

[KrisReef]

While we all know that there is not any miracle cure that kills AEFW in their tracks, there is one that works systematically over several months.

There has been some hype around a new miracle treatment that does not appear to work as described, but it can work if you give it time and use a different methodology.

Wormwood is a powdery, pulpy substance like coffee grounds. It appears to be the main product in a few off-the-shelf remedies. Wormwood will not usually kill larger, healthy AEFW, but it does appear to interrupt their lifecycle and keep any new ones from being born. I have seen it work on a tank with my own eyes, but it took months while the older, larger worms died childless.

How can you make some? Get some Wormwood Powder from Amazon or a health food store. I had been mixing 1/4 cup in a 2 liter soda bottle. Shake it well and let it sit. Keep the cap loose after you shake it or else it can get some back pressure. The wormwood will settle to the bottom. Shake the bottle and dose 1ml for every 10g of tank water EVERY DAY. It harms nothing. It does not even kill normal red planaria.

For those of you who do not feel like mad scientists, just get some KZ Flatworm stop and use at 2x their recommended dosage. This is what got us going on this treatment. Other than being very expensive, it works well.

Here is what you might see... within a few weeks, significantly less bites. Within a month, only large worms and corals starting to regrow around the infected areas. Within two/three months, only a few worms and not new eggs. Within four/six months, none. Keep dosing for a while after this - it hurts nothing, so why not keep it up for a while?

Future study: it does not appear that the KZ Flatworm Stop has the "grounds" or "pulp" in it. They must filter it out. A coffee filter would probably be fine for this. Somebody would need to test that this is just as effective as keep the "grounds" in the solution.

Here is my thread on this in real time while helping a friend:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2670592

Good luck to all with these basturds.

This is what wormwood looks like after it is mixed up:

I have been "wormwooding" for many months. The worms that survived were getting very large (longer than a Quarter coin and similar in surface area when they were moving about) so I just finished the second in-tank dose of PrasiPro in hopes of killing the slippery destroyers. These larger flatworms have been very hard to spot as they would hide under rocks. I have not had evidence of small worm destruction for at least a month, but the larger flatworms could be found still and I wanted them out.

Observations; I think the wormwood is fed upon by corals (like planktonic food) and perhaps it provides the coral with a chemical defense that slows down AEFW feeding on Acropora?

I do skim the tank and have noticed that much of the wormwood liquor is removed from the system through skimming.

I have not seen any downside to wormwooding save the additional gunk inside the skimmer cup. Adding PraziPro with wormwood did not cause any complications and I do have a melanurus wrasse who didn't seem to mind.

I will continue wormwood additions as I think it provides food particles that corals feed upon.

Recent posts in other threads on Reef2Reef indicate that Lanthanum Chloride dip may provide an effective control option for AEFW uses.

Kris

 

[ScottB]

I have been "wormwooding" for many months. The worms that survived were getting very large (longer than a Quarter coin and similar in surface area when they were moving about) so I just finished the second in-tank dose of PrasiPro in hopes of killing the slippery destroyers. These larger flatworms have been very hard to spot as they would hide under rocks. I have not had evidence of small worm destruction for at least a month, but the larger flatworms could be found still and I wanted them out.

Observations; I think the wormwood is fed upon by corals (like planktonic food) and perhaps it provides the coral with a chemical defense that slows down AEFW feeding on Acropora?

I do skim the tank and have noticed that much of the wormwood liquor is removed from the system through skimming.

I have not seen any downside to wormwooding save the additional gunk inside the skimmer cup. Adding PraziPro with wormwood did not cause any complications and I do have a melanurus wrasse who didn't seem to mind.

I will continue wormwood additions as I think it provides food particles that corals feed upon.

Recent posts in other threads on Reef2Reef indicate that Lanthanum Chloride dip may provide an effective control option for AEFW uses.

Kris

The current issue of Coral Magazine ran a full length story on a lanthanum chloride IN TANK treatment. The standard dose of 1ml / 100 liters apparently gets it done. Of course you have to repeat the treatment a few times as it is unlikely to affect the eggs. If you have some PO4 to spare, this sounds pretty good. Of course you could dose the PO4 back if you don't have enough to begin with.

I think I killed off all my aefw the old fashioned way, but if they came back I would certainly go this route.

 

[drawman]

The current issue of Coral Magazine ran a full length story on a lanthanum chloride IN TANK treatment. The standard dose of 1ml / 100 liters apparently gets it done. Of course you have to repeat the treatment a few times as it is unlikely to affect the eggs. If you have some PO4 to spare, this sounds pretty good. Of course you could dose the PO4 back if you don't have enough to begin with.

I think I killed off all my aefw the old fashioned way, but if they came back I would certainly go this route.

That's crazy didn't know that was a thing.

 

[ScottB]

That's crazy didn't know that was a thing.

It was news to me too, but Coral Mag is a legit publication and the story was written by the editor Daniel Knop.

 

[Perry]

Like Doug mentions, let time and patience do the job, I have beaten them twice using KZ Flatworm Stop, not at double dose either, with 60 full colonies in my last tank. Seeing all these chemical dips, and stress to corals. I wonder if the cure is worse than the symptom... A turkey baster, as Doug mentions, wormwood at 2x dose or similar product like KZ, and patience. It promotes health, which becomes the pest deterrent, as opposed to stressing corals, causing them to stall and color down, as well as possible death. Patience is what we speak of, as #1 rule of SPS keeping, so why do we treat pests differently?

 

[ScottB]

Like Doug mentions, let time and patience do the job, I have beaten them twice using KZ Flatworm Stop, not at double dose either, with 60 full colonies in my last tank. Seeing all these chemical dips, and stress to corals. I wonder if the cure is worse than the symptom... A turkey baster, as Doug mentions, wormwood at 2x dose or similar product like KZ, and patience. It promotes health, which becomes the pest deterrent, as opposed to stressing corals, causing them to stall and color down, as well as possible death. Patience is what we speak of, as #1 rule of SPS keeping, so why do we treat pests differently?

I found them beginning of June and finished with them mid August. I threw the kitchen sink at them and it still took 10 weeks.
KZ Stop double dose. 2 liters.
Six-line, melanurus, 5 springeri damsels, cleaner shrimp(for eggs)
Frequent basting
Weekly dips & egg scrapes

It was interesting how the worms had strong preference for some sticks over others.

 

[Perry]

I found them beginning of June and finished with them mid August. I threw the kitchen sink at them and it still took 10 weeks.
KZ Stop double dose. 2 liters.
Six-line, melanurus, 5 springeri damsels, cleaner shrimp(for eggs)
Frequent basting
Weekly dips & egg scrapes

It was interesting how the worms had strong preference for some sticks over others.

Maybe jda/Doug knows why, just using common sense, I would imagine highly colored pieces would have possibly thinner tissue and/or less slime coat. I know KZ taughts increased sliming, which is what the product supposed to promote, which in turn is a repellant to aefw. I remember my infected pieces were always most colorful first, of course....

 

[2Wheelsonly]

In my case flatworm stop made certain acros slime in a major way. Over the course of 6 months all of green acros healed and bite marks vanished, I found that the longer I went on with treatment the more the infestation dwindled to certain targeted corals. I found they went after my red planet, pc rainbow and garf bonsai...over time I eliminated them from some tricolor, blue stags, my oregon tort colony also fully recovered as did all my "shortcake" corals.

They never went after my orange passion colony, my cherry bomb colony was also left alone as was my pikachi, and WD corals. The more I dose the more they isolate to several specific corals and it just so happens when I remove these they don't slime like the others. It may be that the benefits of FWS are slower on these or that they have a limit to how much they slime.

I have all but eradicated my AEFW by using a combo of the new purge formula and FWS. I look at purge as a quick killer of existing colonies and FWS as a long term solution to starve them out (this is to deal with future eggs).

I am going to use FWS for 1 more year just to be sure and with the new purge formula I really don't need a boatload of bottles to treat my large system to keep the population back if it re-grows. As of now my corals are doing great and I don't see any signs of stress.

Removing and dipping seems like such an inefficient and ugly way of dealing with these things. Dipping is so hard on corals as is breaking off large colonies as you're never able to place them back exactly how they were and that opens up a whole new challenge of shading, light coverage and affecting other corals due to sudden new placement of a large shadowing colony.

I also feel that for every success story for "dipping" there are plenty more where things went south fast. All it takes is for one tiny egg to make it past, they are extremely hard to spot the larger the colony and sometimes can grow inside the damage coral skeleton. Dips do not kill eggs either so I think this is just not a great method.

 

[KrisReef]

Is anyone refrigerating the wormwood solution or is it fine sitting out?

MIne is just sitting out without any noticeable issue. I mixed up a liter bottle and used that to fill a smaller bottle that I dosed from each day, so the liter was only opened every few weeks.

Also, I had powder and a 1/4 cup weighted about 16 grams. The Cut and Sifted product (by weight= 16 grams) filled a 1/3 cup container. I just mixed that up and will use a fish net to "filter out" the larger pieces after I've made a tea. I notice the powder gets pulled from the tank by the skimmer and I suspect that the corals are ingesting some of the particles that get put into the tank.

I suspect that the mechanism of wormwood powder uptake by feeding corals may provide chemical products that the coral store, perhaps modified so that their flesh isn't as tasty to AEFW? Or perhaps they get agitated by the wormwood to produce slime that interrupts the aefw feeding upon them?

"Merry Christmas" I told the AEFW as I added another cup of wormwood into the tank. "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleworms," eternal piece for our tanks.

 

[Ellery]

So any difference between using

Wormwood (Artemisia Absinthium) vs.​

Sweet Wormwood (Artemisia Annua}​

Previous posts seem to be using

Artemisia Absinthium​

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

After reading through this entire thread it is plainly obvious that this wormwood stuff will not eradicate the worms! People using it and ridiculously expensive stuff like flatworm stop at double the dose for 7 months to a year and still finding flatworms. That is not a cure just a bottle of expensive hope!

At best these options act as a coral conditioner to slow the worms down but it will not stop them. For it to cure it would have to exterminate these worms permanently. I feel like people promoting Flatworm stop and AEFW-x are really just undercover reps praying on the hopes of reefers with no other option.

Keep going you have only been dosing double the dose for 6 months your just getting started! Sounds more like milking us for as much money as possible and gullible fools falling for it.

Instead of making snake oil fake products why don't these companies invest some of their ill-gotten gains in some real research and find us true a cure. Surely, someone, could Run the genome of these things and find a real drug to use on them.

Absolutely getting sickened by this hobby if it's not one thing it is another!

 

[Oscar Bravo]

I do agree that flatworm stop do not work. It only slow them down.

 

[jda]

Patient zero tank here is still AEFW free along with about 2 dozen others locally.

If anybody is sick by this, you have only yourself to blame. Coral QT is a real thing. Everybody knows the risks of not using one. Did these same undercover reps sneak into your homes and plant AEFW in your systems?

I honestly don't know why people even try to help others anymore. Most are too dumb to get it and others then cannot wait to suggest nefarious motives when they don't like something.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

Patient zero tank here is still AEFW free along with about 2 dozen others locally.

If anybody is sick by this, you have only yourself to blame. Coral QT is a real thing. Everybody knows the risks of not using one. Did these same undercover reps sneak into your homes and plant AEFW in your systems?

I honestly don't know why people even try to help others anymore. Most are too dumb to get it and others then cannot wait to suggest nefarious motives when they don't like something.

I have always dipped everything before putting anything into the tank. The problem with AEFW is that a normal dip will not work. These things need to be dipped in a strong dip for an extended period of time and even then it will not kill the eggs. So in order to make sure you never get them you would have to dip every acro to within an inch of its life and cut off the base of the coral well above the frag plug and rebase it onto a new plug. Then put the acro into an established qt tank for months just in case. Who is actually going to do all that especially if you are new to keeping Acros? Nobody! So how can it be our own fault? You would only know this stuff if you have already been hit with all these problems.

This hobby is a minefield and it is sickening at times. It is really time that retailers started taking responsibility and provide us with pest-free livestock in terms of fish and corals. You would not accept cats and dogs being sold while infested with worms and parasites so why do we accept it with fish and corals!

So currently to really be successful in the hobby you need :

A qt tank for your fish
A totally separate and well-established mature qt tank for your corals.
You can never let an unquarantined fish, Acro, or piece of live rock into your system.
You need to dip every acro in a strong dip for an extended period of time and then cut off the base well above the frag plug and rebase it onto a new plug before keeping it in quarantine for a few months just to be sure.
You also have to deal with all the other pest type issues like vermatid snails, dino's, cyano, GHA, bubble algae, Aiptaisa, nudibranch and non-Acropora eating flatworms.

Who would actually go to these lengths and who in their right mind would be in such a hobby! ‍;Sour

 

[jda]

You forgot to add: all while expecting amazing results instantly with no tolerance for setbacks or any kind of additional expense or work.

If you are not going to take responsibility for what went into your tank, or accountability for what will, then this hobby is not for you. Period. Not to get all preachy, but life will be hard too. Nobody said that this hobby what cheap or easy, did they. Time is most of what is needed. You can set up a Coral QT for probably less than 100 quid if you take your time and find used stuff... but that is a lot of work for people who want it now.

I haven't posted in more than year about how gentle Bayer is on corals and it kills the worms flat out dead. Yes, you should always change frag plugs and use a toothbrush around bases. I know that Bayer might not be available in the EU (which amazes me since Bayer is HQ in Germany), but even people in the US are experimenting with other things and just not listening. I have given up and just rest on the pages of posts that I seem to have wasted trying to explain this to people. I can dip a super sensitive smooth skinned acro in Bayer for an hour and it looks great 2 minutes after I put it in the tank.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

You forgot to add: all while expecting amazing results instantly with no tolerance for setbacks or any kind of additional expense or work.

If you are not going to take responsibility for what went into your tank, or accountability for what will, then this hobby is not for you. Period. Not to get all preachy, but life will be hard too. Nobody said that this hobby what cheap or easy, did they. Time is most of what is needed. You can set up a Coral QT for probably less than 100 quid if you take your time and find used stuff... but that is a lot of work for people who want it now.

I haven't posted in more than year about how gentle Bayer is on corals and it kills the worms flat out dead. Yes, you should always change frag plugs and use a toothbrush around bases. I know that Bayer might not be available in the EU (which amazes me since Bayer is HQ in Germany), but even people in the US are experimenting with other things and just not listening. I have given up and just rest on the pages of posts that I seem to have wasted trying to explain this to people. I can dip a super sensitive smooth skinned acro in Bayer for an hour and it looks great 2 minutes after I put it in the tank.

I have had every kind of issue it's possible to have in this hobby and have been at it for 5 years. I am just getting a bit sick of the constant issues. Just when you have it cracked something else comes along and kicks you in the nuts.

Bayer is not available in the EU because we have much stricter rules around pesticides and things even if it is made in Germany.
You cannot get chemiclean or really any kind of effective treatment for fish except copper and hydrogen peroxide. Any kind of antibiotic is illegal without a doctor/vet's prescription.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

This is pure genius: