Would love opinions

[AJsTank]

I've got a 400 gallon display.

There is an 11 inch Naso, about 15 Anthias, Yellow Tang, Kole Tang. I've been battling Ich for 3 months. The fish that are left have basically survived it, everything else that was in my tank was eradicated a month ago.

The Yellow and Kole still have it and I'm assuming they are going to pass on because they are getting weaker and weaker.

I already know I should have quarantined, but that has never been an option until recently because I had no room in my home. I've been doing this for 14 years and I know what I SHOULD have done, but it just wasn't an option at the time because I had a flood in my home, so there was no room anywhere for another tank for quite awhile.

The tank is full of high end SPS and around 350lbs of live rock, so getting the existing fish out is not an option, period.

Here is the kicker - I have a pair of Cross Hatch triggers that are 10 inches each showing up to my home on Friday. I ordered these things months ago and pre-paid for them. The seller will not keep them any longer. I have a 40 gallon breeder set up right now as a quarantine tank with Cupramine, but I doesn't seem like that's big enough for these fish. I know Cross Hatche's are pretty hardy, so if this was YOUR tank and you were in this position would you throw them in the display knowing they are a hardy fish or toss them into the 40 gallon tank?

Theoretically, since I'm not removing my fish the Ich will always have a presence in my display. So I'm leaning towards just tossing them in.

I don't know of anyone locally that will take them and honestly, I don't know of any store I would trust with them. Picking up a another 40 gallon is not an option right now.

 

[roadrashpaul]

If you display has ich then there is no reason to QT them because when you put them in the dt they are going to run the risk of getting it anyway. I would just put them in and hope for the best.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Healthy fish can beat Ich. My stupid Hippo Tang comes back with it everytime I rearrange the tank, but hes the only one that gets it. Id throw the Triggers in the tank, but thats just my opinion. Im like you, ive never run a QT, and dont plan to. Keep them fat and they can beat it.

 

[AJsTank]

Healthy fish can beat Ich. My stupid Hippo Tang comes back with it everytime I rearrange the tank, but hes the only one that gets it. Id throw the Triggers in the tank, but thats just my opinion. Im like you, ive never run a QT, and dont plan to. Keep them fat and they can beat it.

Yeah, my Naso had it 4 months ago really bad, but since he fought it off, he never gets it now. I've just been feeding heavier than normal....

But yeah, I seriously don't know a single person who truly quarantines. We all know we should, but it seems like no one does it. I only hear of people on here and some on FB that do it. Did you see that pole that Live Aquaria did on Facebook? There was over 600 responses and only like 10 people said they quarantined. lol

 

[Reefing Madness]

I have a different theory than most about Ich. If I havent added ansingle fish to my tank in over a year, how in the hell can my Hippo keep getting it. Im like you, I maintain that its always in there.

 

[roadrashpaul]

I think the difference is if you qt from the very beginning and do not put any fish in there that haven't been treated. If you treat EVERY SINGLE fish before it goes in the display then you can keep ich out of the tank. That's my understanding anyway.

 

[Ben jammin]

Well, if you have a QT available that you can put the triggers in, then I would recommend doing so until you can ensure that they are healthy, strong and eating well. That way you can be sure that when you put them in the DT they will have the best chance of resisting the ich. If you put them straight into the DT and they're already stressed from shipping and maybe not eating well or at all, they are more likely to succumb to the parasite.

 

[AJsTank]

Well, if you have a QT available that you can put the triggers in, then I would recommend doing so until you can ensure that they are healthy, strong and eating well. That way you can be sure that when you put them in the DT they will have the best chance of resisting the ich. If you put them straight into the DT and they're already stressed from shipping and maybe not eating well or at all, they are more likely to succumb to the parasite.

Do you think a 40 gallon tank is big enough for 2 - 10 inch Triggers?

 

[AJsTank]

I think the difference is if you qt from the very beginning and do not put any fish in there that haven't been treated. If you treat EVERY SINGLE fish before it goes in the display then you can keep ich out of the tank. That's my understanding anyway.

No, you're right. I guess I kind of answered my own question. I need to figure out if I should put them in my 40 gallon tank and get them eating first, so they are ready.

 

[monkiboy]

buying from places that sell fully quarantined and treated livestock is also an option for those starting new or want to avoid the risk of adding a fish with a parasite like MV to the tank that could grenade the rest of the population. especially if you don't have the room, don't care to quarantine yourself, or just don't have the knowledge on how to do it yourself. nicewrasse.com and exoticreefcreations.com (both vendors on here) are two outfits that do this and are very reasonably priced for the amount of effort involved and can get pretty much anything you might find elsewhere with the benefit of not bringing in any parasites, they are only shipped when eating well, and all fish will be clean as a whistle.

 

[Marshall O]

buying from places that sell fully quarantined and treated livestock is also an option for those starting new or want to avoid the risk of adding a fish with a parasite like MV to the tank that could grenade the rest of the population. especially if you don't have the room, don't care to quarantine yourself, or just don't have the knowledge on how to do it yourself. nicewrasse.com and exoticreefcreations.com (both vendors on here) are two outfits that do this and are very reasonably priced for the amount of effort involved and can get pretty much anything you might find elsewhere with the benefit of not bringing in any parasites, they are only shipped when eating well, and all fish will be clean as a whistle.

I have to disagree with what you are saying. Never assume a fish is free of diseases and parasites, even if the supplier QT's and/or treats them. Case in point, I received an order from Nicewrasse of three wrasses. All three were put into a 55 gallon QT (which was setup for that order, and cycled ahead of time; no other fish were in the tank prior). Two out of the three showed signs of Ich after being in the tank for one day; one was completely covered. Even though I treated with Cupramine, I did lose one of the fish (which happened to be the most expensive and rare of the bunch of course). If I had put them right into my 125, I can almost guarantee I would have had to pull every other fish in that tank and treat them all.

That being said, I would not hesitate to buy from Nicewrasse again. But there is no question I would place any new fish into QT. I do the same with my Diver's Den orders, LFS, and any other online vendor.

 

[monkiboy]

that's a good point marshall for those that have the ability but my posts was more to the point that AJ is stating he doesn't have the option for a qt tank or qt system. so you're better off buying from a vendor/supplier that has an explicit and transparent protocol than not going through the diligence of doing it yourself.

that's unfortunate about your experience. i've always done the same with fish i receive no matter where they come from as you mention -they go into my qt. i've ordered a few from brett/nicewrasse without anything coming up in my qt. wonder what happened and i'll pm me you separately about this further to avoid thread jacking. but one must also be very careful about cross-contamination. you mention setting up a 55 and cycling it prior to their arrival but perhaps it's possible you used a hose, net, filter, pvc fittings, sand, sand basin, wet hands, frozen food transfer etc from a system that is not "clean" and contaminated your 55 before or even the day they arrived when feeding them or setting them up or acclimating, etc. brett's always described his process very clearly to me and proven to me he does what he says what he is doing in treatment as best he can with videos and photos but you're right that it is possible for an error to occur on either side of the situation. that's unfortunate a wrasse had to die but you're both doing your best i'm sure.

but yes, it's a great alternative for someone who is not going to do it themselves otherwise and more commonly you will get a fish that is parasite free and wouldn't have to deal with the unfortunate circumstances as described in this thread.

 

[Marshall O]

that's a good point marshall for those that have the ability but my posts was more to the point that AJ is stating he doesn't have the option for a qt tank or qt system. so you're better off buying from a vendor/supplier that has an explicit and transparent protocol than not going through the diligence of doing it yourself.

that's unfortunate about your experience. i've always done the same with fish i receive no matter where they come from as you mention -they go into my qt. i've ordered a few from brett/nicewrasse without anything coming up in my qt. wonder what happened and i'll pm me you separately about this further to avoid thread jacking. but one must also be very careful about cross-contamination. you mention setting up a 55 and cycling it prior to their arrival but perhaps it's possible you used a hose, net, filter, pvc fittings, sand, sand basin, wet hands, frozen food transfer etc from a system that is not "clean" and contaminated your 55 before or even the day they arrived when feeding them or setting them up or acclimating, etc. brett's always described his process very clearly to me and proven to me he does what he says what he is doing in treatment as best he can with videos and photos but you're right that it is possible for an error to occur on either side of the situation. that's unfortunate a wrasse had to die but you're both doing your best i'm sure.

but yes, it's a great alternative for someone who is not going to do it themselves otherwise and more commonly you will get a fish that is parasite free and wouldn't have to deal with the unfortunate circumstances as described in this thread.

IMO, a QT should be mandatory for any SW hobbyist. I wish more LFS and retailers preached the same (some do, most don't).

And as far as my case, there was not a chance of cross contamination. Tank had been previously setup as a reef tank, taken down once I setup my 125. All new SW. Cycled with flake food. And even if there was a chance of cross contamination, there is no way a fish would be covered after one day. Not how the life cycle of Ich works. Besides that, Brett had just finished treating one of the fish shipped to me for Ich (obviously not a successful treatment). I was aware of this of course, but knew if there was an issue I could treat in the QT. Obviously didn't work out, but it is what it is.

But that is neither here nor there. As mentioned, I would purchase from Brett again if he had something I was looking for. I have received a fish from Diver's Den that showed signs of Ich upon arrival. I just don't think it is wise to advise people to trust the QT procedures of a retailer. I know I wouldn't want anyone blaming me for them introducing a diseased fish...

 

[monkiboy]

...there was not a chance of cross contamination. Tank had been previously setup as a reef tank, taken down once I setup my 125. All new SW. Cycled with flake food.

there is always a chance of cross-contamination but we as hobbyist in our simple systems simply try to reduce that as low as possible through diligence and awareness. it could have been as simple as you fed some "unclean" tank with the flake food, put your fingers in the water or water splashed in and then you grabbed a pinch for ghost feeding of the new qt tank the day before the fish arrived and all the sudden you have ich in your qt the day or up to two days before the fish arrived. and that's just one possible situation. there's syringes for feeding or water samples, pumps, hoses for changes, etc.

And even if there was a chance of cross contamination, there is no way a fish would be covered after one day. Not how the life cycle of Ich works.

while unlikely, it most certainly is possible given what we know about how the lifecycle of ich works. let's say you have an encysted protomont in an unclean tank. it's now a tomont and all these baby tomites are made and you have these evil, now theronts, swimming in your water column looking for a sucker of fish for the next 48 hours (depending on temperature). if you happen to get your hands wet from feeding, a water change, etc during this part of the life cycle and cross contaminate your qt then add your new arrivals within those 48 hours, you can see symptoms of the now hosted theronts aka trophonts on the fish for the next 7 days.

I just don't think it is wise to advise people to trust the QT procedures of a retailer. I know I wouldn't want anyone blaming me for them introducing a diseased fish...

again, i think for someone in AJs situation who will not be quarantining or treating the fish regardless, or perhaps would not be able to do the homework to ensure it'd done correctly (quarantine and treatment is all or nothing affair really), it's an excellent option worth mentioning. if the buyer has the space and knows how to properly qt and treat i would always love to hear another reefer in the community taking advantage of that aspect of the hobby, as you said, regardless of where the fish came from.

 

[Marshall O]

there is always a chance of cross-contamination but we as hobbyist in our simple systems simply try to reduce that as low as possible through diligence and awareness. it could have been as simple as you fed some "unclean" tank with the flake food, put your fingers in the water or water splashed in and then you grabbed a pinch for ghost feeding of the new qt tank the day before the fish arrived and all the sudden you have ich in your qt the day or up to two days before the fish arrived. and that's just one possible situation. there's syringes for feeding or water samples, pumps, hoses for changes, etc.

Can we both agree that what you are talking about is EXTREMELY unlikely to happen. In my case I know for a fact it didn't, but in anybody's case the likelihood of a theront attaching to your skin for the few seconds you stick your hands in the water is basically 0. And then for it to stay attached to your skin, which would be dried off before sticking your hands back into a flake container, stay on your fingers until your dry hands go back in the tank, and then release in the new tank...

Since a theront can not reproduce, we would be talking about at most, "a couple" theronts, which is extremely highly unlikely as mentioned. If you transferred water from one tank to another, or a filter from one to another, then I agree, the potential would be there to transfer more than a few theronts. But this is not the case with my situation. My Earl's Wrasse was covered in trophont cysts a day after introduction. As mentioned, there is not a chance this could have occurred just from a theront or two (which as already mentioned would be extremely unlikely in the first place).[/QUOTE]

while unlikely, it most certainly is possible given what we know about how the lifecycle of ich works. let's say you have an encysted protomont in an unclean tank. it's now a tomont and all these baby tomites are made and you have these evil, now theronts, swimming in your water column looking for a sucker of fish for the next 48 hours (depending on temperature). if you happen to get your hands wet from feeding, a water change, etc during this part of the life cycle and cross contaminate your qt then add your new arrivals within those 48 hours, you can see symptoms of the now hosted theronts aka trophonts on the fish for the next 7 days.

Completely agree; that is the life cycle of Ich.

again, i think for someone in AJs situation who will not be quarantining or treating the fish regardless, or perhaps would not be able to do the homework to ensure it'd done correctly (quarantine and treatment is all or nothing affair really), it's an excellent option worth mentioning. if the buyer has the space and knows how to properly qt and treat i would always love to hear another reefer in the community taking advantage of that aspect of the hobby, as you said, regardless of where the fish came from.

That is the problem. I don't accept that people can't QT. If you have room for a tank with a stand, you have room for a 10 gallon tank that can be placed anywhere in the house. My opinion of course, but again it should be SOP for all hobbyists...

 

[AJsTank]

That is the problem. I don't accept that people can't QT. If you have room for a tank with a stand, you have room for a 10 gallon tank that can be placed anywhere in the house. My opinion of course, but again it should be SOP for all hobbyists...

I shouldn't have to explain, but whatever it's all good. I set up my 400 in my main living room. My basement where I had normally put a quarantine system completely flooded and ruined everything. I had issues with my insurance company covering things at the time, so the other parts of my home were a little crowded. I had pre-paid for thousands of dollars of fish, there is no room for a tank anywhere. As a matter a fact, I sold my 4 gallon nano, because I had to get it out of my kitchen because there was no room anywhere. I understand why you should quarantine, it was just not feasible at the time. I had already ordered thousands of dollars in fish and my only other option was send them to the stores, which I wasn't going to do.

 

[Trex]

JMO, If you are spending "thousands of dollars in fish", you would find a way to home them until you can run your DT fallow for 8 weeks. Putting them into a DT that you know has ick is risking flushing "thousands of dollars in fish" down the drain. Not a risk that I would be willing to take.

 

[Marshall O]

I shouldn't have to explain, but whatever it's all good. I set up my 400 in my main living room. My basement where I had normally put a quarantine system completely flooded and ruined everything. I had issues with my insurance company covering things at the time, so the other parts of my home were a little crowded. I had pre-paid for thousands of dollars of fish, there is no room for a tank anywhere. As a matter a fact, I sold my 4 gallon nano, because I had to get it out of my kitchen because there was no room anywhere. I understand why you should quarantine, it was just not feasible at the time. I had already ordered thousands of dollars in fish and my only other option was send them to the stores, which I wasn't going to do.

Understood, I was more venting as to how many posts I see from people who have diseased fish and "don't have room or $ for a QT". So I do apologize for coming off harsh.

Getting back to your original questions, a 40 is definitely on the small size for two 10" triggers. I would see if you could find a 75 or 90 to house them in, if possible. The biggest problem is going to be maintaining water quality in a relatively small tank with two large & messy eaters. Swimming space is an issues, but short term a 3' or 4' tank should be fine.