Wow, ammonia more valuable than gold!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 26, 2017

To a bacteria, at least.

This article has some really interesting information in it:

How microbes survive in the open ocean
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/357/6352/646.full

For example:

"To emphasize the remarkable balance between cellular needs and supply, consider that open-ocean concentrations of ammonium ions—the preferred inorganic source of nitrogen for P. marina—are often 10 nanomolar (nM) or less. Thus, ammonium molecules are distributed at a distance l of about 0.6 µm. A seawater volume of ∼0.5 µm3, equivalent to a large microbial cell of radius 0.5 µm, would thus contain less than five ammonium ions. Yet, one smaller P. marinacell requires 4 × 108 N atoms per day to divide. In other words, to reproduce, a microbial cell needs to harvest the ammonium from hundreds of millions of times its cell volume"

jsker · Aug 26, 2017

Hey Randy anyway to view the article with having to log in?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 26, 2017

I don't know. I didn't do anything special and don't have a subscription.

You can't see it?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 26, 2017

Oh, I'm blocked now too. Guess I hit a lucky window. lol

brandon429 · Aug 26, 2017

its mind boggling how there are any reserves at all considering the suspended floc and nitrification powers within seawater itself as communities in suspension vie for foodstuffs. seawater is alive, and hungry, and efficient apparently at maintaining just enough portion on a continual basis. amazing

sghera64 · Aug 26, 2017

Humans get rid of much of there N from "ports" below the navel. I thought I read that fish eliminate most of their N through their gills - and much of it was in the form of ammonia.

Can anyone very that second part (gills - ammonia)?

brandon429 · Aug 26, 2017

yep for sure. I sure thought they emit a concentrated and low volume urine as well, for osmoregulation, and iirc the gills are the primary surface exchange for ammonia and waste gas and o2

and now im off to google whether fw fish rely on gill exchange to the same degree, having to work far less on osmoregulation. they swim where water doesn't try to constantly leave cells

sghera64 · Aug 26, 2017

brandon429 said:
yep for sure. they emit a concentrated nitrogenous urine too but lung surface area I believe is major liberation source

Then perhaps the N reserves for the bacteria are the finned bags of flesh with gills.

I guess another way to look at it is fish are just ammonia factories needing algae as a raw material input. (Can you tell I work in manufacturing?)

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 26, 2017

sghera64 said:
Humans get rid of much of there N from "ports" below the navel. I thought I read that fish eliminate most of their N through their gills - and much of it was in the form of ammonia.

Can anyone very that second part (gills - ammonia)?

Yes, marine fish excrete ammonia via gills.

Keiffer the reefer · Aug 26, 2017

I'm just guessing, but I don't think the bacteria have that much trouble getting ammonium in my overstocked tank. [emoji848][emoji51]

jason2459 · Aug 26, 2017

That's an amazing statistic.

Keiffer the reefer said:
I'm just guessing, but I don't think the bacteria have that much trouble getting ammonium in my overstocked tank. [emoji848][emoji51]

There's a lot of competition for ammonia. It's highly preferred by other things like Algae from which to get a source of N over other forms like ammonium nitrite or ammonium nitrate.

JimWelsh · Aug 28, 2017

jsker said:
Hey Randy anyway to view the article with having to log in?

Try http://sci-hub.cc/

jason2459 · Aug 28, 2017

JimWelsh said:
Try http://sci-hub.cc/

You had me at hello

flagg37 · Aug 28, 2017

How does this fit with the zeovit system? Their "magic rocks" that you have to pump every day are supposed to absorb ammonia before the bacteria even has a chance to change it to nitrite.

brandon429 · Aug 28, 2017

It will not matter in regards to nitrification. Nothing we do to a tank after hydrating it, giving time to complete the cycle, under normal care standards (meds excluded of course, no major revisions to acting surface area) stops or retrogrades nitrification to the point we have a lack of bacteria and can measure that as free ammonia against a consistent bioload.
If you wet it, the nitrifiers get there and they find feed from the miniscule offerings of nature just fine even with minor insults we may allow. The classic example was going fallow for 76 days...if I don't feed my bac, they'll die (not)

That's not to say someone intent on finding a breakpoint in surface area and free ammonia measures couldn't arrange things to indicate that...but we all deal typically in massive surface area designs, all your nitrifiers need is water and time, then there's no going back

Of all the animals we farm, bacteria need no consideration from us in how we reef unless we are designing ways to export them from overload. We don't have to find ways to keep the baseline. Water is all they need.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 28, 2017

flagg37 said:
How does this fit with the zeovit system? Their "magic rocks" that you have to pump every day are supposed to absorb ammonia before the bacteria even has a chance to change it to nitrite.

IMO, ammonia binding is an unimportant side effect of such zeolites. It provides no substantial benefit or detriment.

teller · Aug 28, 2017

flagg37 said:
How does this fit with the zeovit system? Their "magic rocks" that you have to pump every day are supposed to absorb ammonia before the bacteria even has a chance to change it to nitrite.

I think your rose a very interesting question.
Not regarding specifically zeovit but the generic use of zeolith in a reactor to absorb immediately amonia.
Interesting these methods then push thr comsumer to add additional bacteria and new sources of nitrogen.

brandon429 · Aug 28, 2017

I think this thread below on tiny pico reefs is the best description of the truth regarding what bacteria require Ive ever seen. not just because its on a pico reef, but because he's doing months-long fasting testing.

-ammonia gets in, though he does not provide, then the bac are still able to digest orders more than their natural adapted amnts of ammonia after a huge dump... due to surface area allotments not changed-

what he's doing here goes against the grain of what 99% of posters would have predicted in a poll set before the test. neato. bacteria are bulletproof basically
https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/to...stablished-tank/?tab=comments#comment-5559443

Hans-Werner · Aug 29, 2017

flagg37 said:
How does this fit with the zeovit system? Their "magic rocks" that you have to pump every day are supposed to absorb ammonia before the bacteria even has a chance to change it to nitrite.

It is the effect that makes the corals "bleach" in zeolith systems. After the removal of ammonia the density of photosynthetic pigments in the corals gets reduced making them appear brighter and more intense in color. I think nitrate is still present in zeolith systems. Maybe the filtration over zeolith even increases nitrification since bacteria can grow on the zeolith substrate. The reduced availability of ammonia and nitrogen causes the reduction of photosynthetic pigments in Zooxanthellae.