Wrasse Question

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Hey everyone! From everything I've read, it sounds like most wrasse eventually transition from female to male in home aquaria. Does anybody know why this happens when, as I understand it, this doesn't happen in nature? Is there anything we can do to prevent the transition?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey everyone! From everything I've read, it sounds like most wrasse eventually transition from female to male in home aquaria. Does anybody know why this happens when, as I understand it, this doesn't happen in nature? Is there anything we can do to prevent the transition?

This happens with many marine fish. . . wrasses, parrotfish, anthias, clown, some damsels and more

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

This happens with many marine fish. . . wrasses, parrotfish, anthias, clown, some damsels and more

I know that many of them transition, but why does a higher percentage transition in aquaria than in the wild? Or do they all eventually transition in nature too regardless of circumstances and situations?

 

[Tamberav]

I know that many of them transition, but why does a higher percentage transition in aquaria than in the wild? Or do they all eventually transition in nature too regardless of circumstances and situations?

my bet is it is possible with an enormous tank and a huge harem of wrasse. Our tanks are mostly nothing like the ocean.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Yes, but why do they transition? Is it a chemical thing, is it a social thing, is it a nutrition thing? What causes almost all of them to transition?

 

[SmCaudata]

I know that many of them transition, but why does a higher percentage transition in aquaria than in the wild? Or do they all eventually transition in nature too regardless of circumstances and situations?

They also breed in the wild and not in the aquarium. No matter how good we are, captivity is different than the ocean. I would expect them to act differently. Perhaps the tank wrasse feels the need to be dominant more than the wild wrasse. Who knows?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I’m sorry if I’ve ruffled some feathers with this question - that wasn’t my intent. I am aware that our tanks are different from the ocean and that captivity is different from the wild. I’m merely trying to see if we know what the difference is for these fish in particular. (I have a passion for research and learning new things.)

If no one knows why, that’s fine, but I think figuring out answers to questions like these is an important step toward being able both to better care for the animals in our aquaria and to potentially take further steps toward captive breeding of the populations (which would be good for the wild populations, the planet’s natural ecosystems, and the hobby for a number of reasons).

So, while I am new to the reefing community, this question is not being asked out of sheer ignorance, but out of curiosity and a desire to find a reason (or a potential reason) as to why this happens. I apologize again if I’ve unintentionally rocked the metaphorical boat.

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

Having had a wrasse just recently transition to male I took a bit of an interest in the subject and found the following article which discusses the mechanics and possible cause for the switch. Although it doesn't totally answer your question (it doesn't specifically address aquaria vs ocean) it's interesting nevertheless and might provide some insight.

Stress, novel sex genes, and epigenetic reprogramming orchestrate socially controlled sex change

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Having had a wrasse just recently transition to male I took a bit of an interest in the subject and found the following article which discusses the mechanics and possible cause for the switch. Although it doesn't totally answer your question (it doesn't specifically address aquaria vs ocean) it's interesting nevertheless and might provide some insight.

Stress, novel sex genes, and epigenetic reprogramming orchestrate socially controlled sex change

Thank you! This is actually exactly the sort of thing I'm hoping to find. While it may not pinpoint the answer to my question, it's a great place to start. Thank you again!

 

[SmCaudata]

I’m sorry if I’ve ruffled some feathers with this question - that wasn’t my intent. I am aware that our tanks are different from the ocean and that captivity is different from the wild. I’m merely trying to see if we know what the difference is for these fish in particular. (I have a passion for research and learning new things.)

If no one knows why, that’s fine, but I think figuring out answers to questions like these is an important step toward being able both to better care for the animals in our aquaria and to potentially take further steps toward captive breeding of the populations (which would be good for the wild populations, the planet’s natural ecosystems, and the hobby for a number of reasons).

So, while I am new to the reefing community, this question is not being asked out of sheer ignorance, but out of curiosity and a desire to find a reason (or a potential reason) as to why this happens. I apologize again if I’ve unintentionally rocked the metaphorical boat.

No feathers ruffled here. I really think the answer to why is just the artificial closed environment. I'm sure someone knows the biochemistry behind it, that's the "how" more than why. Questions are good!

 

[i cant think]

Hey everyone! From everything I've read, it sounds like most wrasse eventually transition from female to male in home aquaria. Does anybody know why this happens when, as I understand it, this doesn't happen in nature? Is there anything we can do to prevent the transition?

So in the wild, it’s all about dominance. There can be hundreds of wrasses of the same and similar species. It tends to be the most dominant one becomes male however, there isn’t just the ONE male in that group. You may hear the most dominant male being called a supermale.

What is a supermale? Well, Similarly to clownfish when a female changes sex to become a male it can no longer be able to revert back to being a female. So a super male means the wrasse has changed to a male and can longer turn back. It can also be a male wrasse who has reached the most amount of colour possible.

However, when we look back at this I said most dominant male is the one who is the supermale, but what if the rest weren’t just females? You will often find other, more like the subdominant males in the group, there aren’t as many of these males in the group as there are females though. If I can remember correctly when these males become “Supermale” if that dominant male is still alive then the second supermale gets kicked out. However when the supermale is dead, the others “line” up and I’m pretty sure fight it out, the most dominant becomes the supermale.

I asked a question similar to this and got the same answers of “Our tanks aren’t big enough” and similar.

Against in captivity, I think if you had a large tank with other fish/coral/inverts from the same part of the world you could mimic what these animals are used to, I have 2 lubbocks fairy wrasses and there is certainly the “super” male and the “subdominant” male. I can’t really help much on the captive side of these fish too much but hope the wild bit helps to start with an idea.
Here’s a photo of a wild group of P. filamentosus, you can see the males and females all in there.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

So in the wild, it’s all about dominance. There can be hundreds of wrasses of the same and similar species. It tends to be the most dominant one becomes male however, there isn’t just the ONE male in that group. You may hear the most dominant male being called a supermale.

What is a supermale? Well, Similarly to clownfish when a female changes sex to become a male it can no longer be able to revert back to being a female. So a super male means the wrasse has changed to a male and can longer turn back. It can also be a male wrasse who has reached the most amount of colour possible.

However, when we look back at this I said most dominant male is the one who is the supermale, but what if the rest weren’t just females? You will often find other, more like the subdominant males in the group, there aren’t as many of these males in the group as there are females though. If I can remember correctly when these males become “Supermale” if that dominant male is still alive then the second supermale gets kicked out. However when the supermale is dead, the others “line” up and I’m pretty sure fight it out, the most dominant becomes the supermale.

I asked a question similar to this and got the same answers of “Our tanks aren’t big enough” and similar.

Against in captivity, I think if you had a large tank with other fish/coral/inverts from the same part of the world you could mimic what these animals are used to, I have 2 lubbocks fairy wrasses and there is certainly the “super” male and the “subdominant” male. I can’t really help much on the captive side of these fish too much but hope the wild bit helps to start with an idea.
Here’s a photo of a wild group of P. filamentosus, you can see the males and females all in there.

Thank you - good information!

 

[i cant think]

Thank you - good information!

No problem, I asked a similar question to this, I think it was about why more people with large tanks don’t try to replicate the wild habitat these fish are found in and try get larger group instead of just 1 male to 2-4 females. I’d love to do something like a huge group of the same species of wrasses all starting as female in an 8-10’ tank eventually but that’s WAY into the future.