Yellow tang breathing hard

[Brian Kim]

I have a question for you guys, so she is done with 30 days copper treatment but her DT still needs another month or so to be ready. Are you going to remove copper from the hospital tank for the remaining period.
Wouldn't ich/marine velvelt encyst remain dormant inside the QT tank since copper will only kill free protomonts or theronts (marine velvelt) same for Ich.....
I am in the same situation as her, my DT fallow ends in January, had my fishes treated with copper for 4 weeks, removed them and put them in a 20 gallon tote with freshly mixed salt water using new heater, pumps, whatnot....
Sterilized my hospital tank and all the equipment with vinegar and bleach and let it dry under the sun for a day. They were perfectly fine until 2 days ago when I noticed a couple dots on my purple tang. Woke up this morning and they all had marine velvet again.

 

[melypr1985]

I have a question for you guys, so she is done with 30 days copper treatment but her DT still needs another month or so to be ready. Are you going to remove copper from the hospital tank for the remaining period.
Wouldn't ich/marine velvelt encyst remain dormant inside the QT tank since copper will only kill free protomonts or theronts (marine velvelt) same for Ich.....
I am in the same situation as her, my DT fallow ends in January, had my fishes treated with copper for 4 weeks, removed them and put them in a 20 gallon tote with freshly mixed salt water using new heater, pumps, whatnot....
Sterilized my hospital tank and all the equipemtn with vinegar and bleach and let it dry in the sun for a day. They were perfectly fine until 2 days ago when I noticed a couple dots on my purple tang. Woke up this morning and they all had marine velvet again.

Are you sure you kept the copper at .5 the whole time? It never dropped down below .3?

 

[Brian Kim]

Are you sure you kept the copper at .5 the whole time? It never dropped down below .3?

I use cupramine along with seachem copper test kit. I use their test water to compare with mine from time to time to make sure I am exactly where I have to be.
Edit: I also checked the level on change water prior to dumping into the system

 

[melypr1985]

I use cupramine along with seachem copper test kit. I use their test water to compare with mine from time to time to make sure I am exactly where I have to be.
Edit: I also checked the level on change water prior to dumping into the system

Ok we need more brain on this. @Humblefish ! We need you

 

[Brian Kim]

Well, interesting enough, I've found close to 0 answers to this "in between period from after copper treatment to fallow DT" when I googled it, only a bunch of curious people

 

[melypr1985]

Well, interesting enough, I've found close to 0 answers to this "in between period from copper treatment to fallow DT" when I googled it, only a bunch of curious people

I'll say that I had zero problems with my "limbo" period. I only had ich and flukes though

 

[Brian Kim]

Well, this is the scenario....

1) person buys fish and introduce to the system without QT and next day all of the fish gets ich.
2) person seeks help on the internet on how to combat Ich
3) Sets up QT tank and start medicating with copper
4) 4 weeks goes by and it seems fishes are all doing okay (28 days)
5) well, DT still needs another 48 to finish fallow treatment
6) person reads that extended exposure to copper can damage their internal organs
7) person slowly starts removing copper from QT by performing large w/c, using carbon and even curpisorb....even uses a UV sterilizer
8) 30 days to go for the end of fallow, fishes get sick again.

 

[Humblefish]

There is a flaw to the "30 day treatment rule" when it comes to copper. If you were to encounter a strain of ich that took >30 days for all theronts to be released from the tomonts, then copper treatment would fail. The chances of this happening are low, but it is still prudent to observe for symptoms (especially behavioral ones) of ich post treatment when using copper. There is a chance that copper eradicates the protomont (immediate stage after it drops off the fish) before it can encyst into a tomont (and thus be protected), but there is far less evidence of this than copper's ability to successfully eradicate the theront or free swimming stage.

In any case, I have already come up with a solution to this problem, have tested my theory on dozens of fish and am 99.999% sure of it's effectiveness. And the best news is it's only a 10 day treatment program. BUT I will not release my findings until it has been tested on a dark colored tang (so I can conclusively photograph before & after) with ich. In my upcoming holiday travels, I hope to find a suitable test subject before the end of the year.

 

[Humblefish]

And yes, this is how "The Humblefishs" spend their Xmas. Scouring LFS for dark tangs with ich. Wife is thrilled.

 

[Brian Kim]

This is what I had in mind once I finished my copper treatment, I was planning on starting my second and last copper treatment just 3 weeks prior to reintroducing the fishes to the DT.
Here's reason why, Seachem recommends a 2 week treatment but seen people going 3 weeks to be on the safe side. I would then on the 76th day introduce only the clown fishes to my DT to not shock the system bio-load and wait 7 days prior to introducing the next pair of fishes. (4th week) and would push my luck with introducing the remaining in the following 3 days with 1 fish per day, all this using bio spira for extra support.

 

[Humblefish]

This is what I had in mind once I finished my copper treatment, I was planning on starting my second and last copper treatment just 3 weeks prior to reintroducing the fishes to the DT.
Here's reason why, Seachem recommends a 2 week treatment but seen people going 3 weeks to be on the safe side. I would then on the 76th day introduce only the clown fishes to my DT to not shock the system bio-load and wait 7 days prior to introducing the next pair of fishes. (4th week) and would push my luck with introducing the remaining in the following 3 days with 1 fish per day, all this using bio spira for extra support.

Here's a little preview... Put a fish with ich in a QT, get the Cu up to full therapeutic, hold it there for 10 full days. Remember, ich trophonts can only remain on a fish for 7 days max. On Day 11, transfer said fish to a new non-medicated HT at least 10 feet away from the original QT. Ich cannot remain on a fish longer than 7 days, the presence of copper has zapped any theronts protecting the fish from reinfection, and any encysted tomonts have been left behind in the original QT.

Make sense? I guess I've let the cat out of the hat, but my "official" new QT protocol will knock out more than just ich once it's proven to my satisfaction.

This method also works on velvet.

 

[Brian Kim]

There is a flaw to the "30 day treatment rule" when it comes to copper. If you were to encounter a strain of ich that took >30 days for all theronts to be released from the tomonts, then copper treatment would fail. The chances of this happening are low, but it is still prudent to observe for symptoms (especially behavioral ones) of ich post treatment when using copper. There is a chance that copper eradicates the protomont (immediate stage after it drops off the fish) before it can encyst into a tomont (and thus be protected), but there is far less evidence of this than copper's ability to successfully eradicate the theront or free swimming stage.

In any case, I have already come up with a solution to this problem, have tested my theory on dozens of fish and am 99.999% sure of it's effectiveness. And the best news is it's only a 10 day treatment program. BUT I will not release my findings until it has been tested on a dark colored tang (so I can conclusively photograph before & after) with ich. In my upcoming holiday travels, I hope to find a suitable test subject before the end of the year.

I would love to find out about your results.

Anyways, here's what I would do if I had to do this all over again.

1) I would treat fish for 2 weeks and completely remove copper from hospital/qt tank if they show signs of parasites
2) I would not start treatment if new fish does not show any symptoms. However, I would treat them for flukes with prazipro
3) I would start treatment, whether the fish show signs or not, 3 weeks prior to the end of DT fallow period.
4) Proceed with slow introduction of fish (no more than 2) per week

 

[Brian Kim]

Here's a little preview... Put a fish with ich in a QT, get the Cu up to full therapeutic, hold it there for 10 full days. Remember, ich trophonts can only remain on a fish for 7 days max. On Day 11, transfer said fish to a new non-medicated HT at least 10 feet away from the original QT. Ich cannot remain on a fish longer than 7 days, the presence of copper has zapped any theronts protecting the fish from reinfection, and any encysted tomonts have been left behind in the original QT.

Make sense? I guess I've let the cat out of the hat, but my "official" new QT protocol will knock out more than just ich once it's proven to my satisfaction.

This method also works on velvet.

That would be even better than tank transfer method as long as the person performing this can avoid transfering protomonts/trophonts that are crawling around to find a surface to encyst.

 

[Humblefish]

That would be even better than tank transfer method as long as the person performing this can avoid transfering protomonts/trophonts that are crawling around to find a surface to encyst.

The biggest challenge has been finding medications I can safely mix with CP (and later on down the road copper) to deworm and prophylactically treat for bacterial infections. 95% inclusive according to a colleague who is conducting parallel experimentation.

 

[Brian Kim]

Good luck

 

[omykiss001]

There is a flaw to the "30 day treatment rule" when it comes to copper. If you were to encounter a strain of ich that took >30 days for all theronts to be released from the tomonts, then copper treatment would fail. The chances of this happening are low, but it is still prudent to observe for symptoms (especially behavioral ones) of ich post treatment when using copper. There is a chance that copper eradicates the protomont (immediate stage after it drops off the fish) before it can encyst into a tomont (and thus be protected), but there is far less evidence of this than copper's ability to successfully eradicate the theront or free swimming stage.

In any case, I have already come up with a solution to this problem, have tested my theory on dozens of fish and am 99.999% sure of it's effectiveness. And the best news is it's only a 10 day treatment program. BUT I will not release my findings until it has been tested on a dark colored tang (so I can conclusively photograph before & after) with ich. In my upcoming holiday travels, I hope to find a suitable test subject before the end of the year.

Here a thought I've been mulling around for a bit thinking about the 30 days of copper and 76 day fallow rule. If you are treating an active infection and you don't use your new treat 10 days and move to a clean system and you keep the fish in the QT system where you are treating wouldn't you also need to keep the copper for 76 days to be certain you have eradicated all crypto or the lesser time required for velvet? 30 days probably gets the majority of strains, but if you've got one that cysts for 2 months I'd think you get active infection again once you remove copper from the system after 30 days.

Thoughts?

 

[Humblefish]

Here a thought I've been mulling around for a bit thinking about the 30 days of copper and 76 day fallow rule. If you are treating an active infection and you don't use your new treat 10 days and move to a clean system and you keep the fish in the QT system where you are treating wouldn't you also need to keep the copper for 76 days to be certain you have eradicated all crypto or the lesser time required for velvet? 30 days probably gets the majority of strains, but if you've got one that cysts for 2 months I'd think you get active infection again once you remove copper from the system after 30 days.

Thoughts?

Yes, if you didn't want to transfer then 76 days of continuous copper treatment at therapeutic levels (very important) would be optimal ... BUT not practical because very few fish could survive 76 days of copper without being damaged. Remember, it's technically a poison in liquid form. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites.

You only have two viable options if you want to play it safe with copper:

1. Treat for 30 days, drop the Cu level, and then observe for at least another 30 days to make sure ich is actually gone from the fish. You may (or may not) see visible physical symptoms return (i.e the white dots), but you will almost certainly see key behavioral symptoms (exs. scratching, flashing, head twitching, etc.)
2. After 10 days of continuous copper treatment at therapeutic levels (very important), transfer the fish into a non-medicated HT for additional observation (always observe the 10 foot rule.) You can always treat for longer than 10 days, but transferring the fish out while therapeutic levels are in place should leave behind any "ich problems" in the original QT.

 

[omykiss001]

Yes, if you didn't want to transfer then 76 days of continuous copper treatment at therapeutic levels (very important) would be optimal ... BUT not practical because very few fish could survive 76 days of copper without being damaged. Remember, it's technically a poison in liquid form. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites.

You only have two viable options if you want to play it safe with copper:

1. Treat for 30 days, drop the Cu level, and then observe for at least another 30 days to make sure ich is actually gone from the fish. You may (or may not) see visible physical symptoms return (i.e the white dots), but you will almost certainly see key behavioral symptoms (exs. scratching, flashing, head twitching, etc.)
2. After 10 days of continuous copper treatment at therapeutic levels (very important), transfer the fish into a non-medicated HT for additional observation (always observe the 10 foot rule.) You can always treat for longer than 10 days, but transferring the fish out while therapeutic levels are in place should leave behind any "ich problems" in the original QT.

Absolutely agree about toxicity of copper and treating for that long. More validating what you have also come up with which would be to treat for the shortest amount of time then move into a clean system. I think even a month is to long to expose a fish to copper. Tackle the problem using the parasites biology to ones advantage also a reason I'm an advocate of TTM for crypto treatment and prevention, just don't have enough equipment for all my livestock [emoji12]. Only a few of the fish I've preventatively treated with copper showed no ill effects from the copper, by the 14 day mark many are starting to show some effects of what I'd call copper toxicity. Now this is using cupramine not a chelated form of copper which might be better tolerated and show less acute toxity.

I'm currently treated all my fish as Mr. Crypto slipped in on a coral or some chaeto I recently purchased. Lost my yellow tang not sure if to the crypto or the copper or a combination of both. Strange as this fish seemed to show the fewest symptoms of crypto.

Only upside I see is in order to support my fish after treatment and keep the display fallow I'll now have a 40g breeder that will become the QT tank for corals and other inverts. I have a 400 watt MH that should provide sufficient lighting for any coral until I have the funds for something cooler and more energy efficient.

Chalk it up to a very hard lesson learned. QT everything as I was very thorough with my fish QT, but didn't have the setup for everything else and gambled. Well crapped out and now it all gets QT.

Thanks for sharing the 10 day treat, transfer to a clean system as this was the plan in my head to keep the copper exposure to a minimum, glad to hear others are thinking along the same lines. Poor fish have already had to be yanked from a nice 180 gallon home and into 10 and 20 gallon hospital tanks. Don't want to have to trap and catch these fish ever again, what a PITA. Waiting to see if my CBB survives as he decided to jump behind the tank rather than be captured, poor thing was covered in dust bunnies when I pulled him out. He's a trooper and made it longer than the yellow tang, but I fear he is the other fish at risk all other are handling the treatment OK so far.

 

[Humblefish]

A better alternative to treating with copper is Chloroquine phosphate: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/

You can use the "10 day rule" with CP the same as copper.

 

[omykiss001]

A better alternative to treating with copper is Chloroquine phosphate: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/

You can use the "10 day rule" with CP the same as copper.

Totally agree, but requires a prescription that so far I can't get a vet to give me one. The one who said maybe said they would have to see the animal before they could prescribe anything [emoji852]️. So left with copper as the medicatIon of choice.

I'm thinking about asking my doc at next physical figure it's worth a shot worst he can do is say No, lol