Yet another Phosphate management Discussion

[yak85]

I would get a 10 micron sock with a sock holder to pour it into. I wouldn’t trust not having the precipitant that’s created from going through the 200 micron sock. It may seep through which wouldn’t be good. I use a dedicated magnetic sock holder and sock just to drip the LaCl into. You can order socks on eBay quick and fairly cheap.

 

[Treefer32]

I would get a 10 micron sock with a sock holder to pour it into. I wouldn’t trust not having the precipitant that’s created from going through the 200 micron sock. It may seep through which wouldn’t be good. I use a dedicated magnetic sock holder and sock just to drip the LaCl into. You can order socks on eBay quick and fairly cheap.

So, my question on this, is this just to catch the precipitate at dosing? Or is it to run your overflows into the LACL? Would the sock be position such that it's partially in the sump water, but, the LACL is dosed into the sock? I wasn't sure what the goal of catching the precipitate is. Is 10 micron enough to allow the LACL through it? or is it to catch the bound phosphates? And is aquarium water flown through the 10 micron sock then, if so, how? e.g. a small pump, or overflows flowing into the 10 micron sock? etc?

 

[Aqua Man]

Did I unlock all the phosphate from 100#s of live rock?

Hi, @Randy Holmes-Farley Several months ago I did a tank clean up. I pulled all the rocks one by one, soaked them in straight vinegar for at least 15-20 minutes, washed, rinsed, and put back into the reef. My question, is it possible that at 2.5ph, the vinegar has unbound phosphate from my...

www.reef2reef.com

Good read!

 

[Treefer32]

Did I unlock all the phosphate from 100#s of live rock?

Hi, @Randy Holmes-Farley Several months ago I did a tank clean up. I pulled all the rocks one by one, soaked them in straight vinegar for at least 15-20 minutes, washed, rinsed, and put back into the reef. My question, is it possible that at 2.5ph, the vinegar has unbound phosphate from my...

www.reef2reef.com

Good read!

Thanks! I see people running the LC into their skimmers. I took my skimmer off a few months ago. I have a 25 micron cannister filter attached to my return manifold so 25% of my water is circled back into the sump through the cannister filter 25% goes back through my algae turf scrubber, which drains into my sump, then 50% goes to the two return lines to my tank. So, 50% of the water is filtered in multiple ways then sent back to the display eventually. The display is handling around 2400 gph (max capacity of my overflows).

It sounds like I should be using a skimmer or 10 micron filter to run the LC through when dosing it? I'm dosing 2ml a day right now for this week. Mixed into a 12 oz of tank water then dispersed into the sump. I was hoping to up to dosing that twice a day after this week. So far, fish are acting the same. I don't want to exceed 4-5 ml a day ever. Just to keep it at really low levels.

 

[Treefer32]

Quick update. I've been dosing 2 ml a day into my 200 micron filter sock. So far no adverse reactions to fish or corals. My RBTA closes up about 10 minutes after dosing for a few minutes then reopens. But, other than that no adverse reactions.

I tested with HANA checker Wednesday and was at .52 ppm.

With 2ml a Day of LC and running a GFO Resin in my cannister filter, the phosphates tested at .45 as of today. Just with doing 2ml a day for 4 days.

I've ordered two 5 micron socks. I'm still not sure how this work to dose into the sock. I'll up it to 3 ml a day for the next 3 days and retest on Wednesday / Thursday.

 

[Treefer32]

Does LC cause rises in PH. My pH is hitting 8.31. where the highest it before I dosed LC was 8.1. Just odd.

 

[yak85]

Does LC cause rises in PH. My pH is hitting 8.31. where the highest it before I dosed LC was 8.1. Just odd.

Sorry. Forgot to follow up with you. Yes I use a dedicated 10 micron sock on s magnetic sock holder just to only put the LaCl into which catches the precipitation which occurs when it hits the water. That way none of the precipitant enters the rest of the tank. Keep a close eye on you alkalinity. LaCl will lower it. Sometimes I add seachem alkalinity buffer a day before dosing the tank with LaCl.

 

[Treefer32]

Sorry. Forgot to follow up with you. Yes I use a dedicated 10 micron sock on s magnetic sock holder just to only put the LaCl into which catches the precipitation which occurs when it hits the water. That way none of the precipitant enters the rest of the tank. Keep a close eye on you alkalinity. LaCl will lower it. Sometimes I add seachem alkalinity buffer a day before dosing the tank with LaCl.

Thanks, I increased my alk dosing, as the water is getting cleaner my alk consumption is going up, from my corals as well as from the LaCLl. I got a 5 micron sock to use as well, which seems to be working out quite well. I've got phosphates down to .22 and I've done a couple major water changes and continue to dose 5 ml to 10 ml a day using the sock. So far things are working out well. Today I should hit my target of less than .15 ppm.

 

[guylaga]

Thanks, I increased my alk dosing, as the water is getting cleaner my alk consumption is going up, from my corals as well as from the LaCLl. I got a 5 micron sock to use as well, which seems to be working out quite well. I've got phosphates down to .22 and I've done a couple major water changes and continue to dose 5 ml to 10 ml a day using the sock. So far things are working out well. Today I should hit my target of less than .15 ppm.

Just a bit of advice, since a 5 micron sock can get clogged really fast but things other than Lanthum precipitate I tuck a 100 or 50 micron into a 1 micron sock.

The larger sock will catch any food / fish poo ect.... leaving the smaller micron sock to catch the precipitate.

 

[Treefer32]

I was actually wondering about this. My 5 micron sock is much larger than I thought it would be so, I can fit the standard filter socks I have inside the huge 5 micron sock.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

@Treefer32 I noticed you were intending to dilute the LaCl in tank water before dripping. You need to use RODI rather than tank water as the LaCl can react with the alkalinity in the diltution water before it ever gets dosed. Using RODI will keep the LaCl unreacted until dosed.

Dennis

 

[Treefer32]

I noticed there was a reaction in the salt water, I assumed that was the precipitate people mentioned to capture in the filter socks. heh. So, it's crazy but I had phosphates down to .22 ppm with 30% water changes weekly and dosing 10 ml of LaCl a day. Yesterday afternoon 1 day after it was .22 ppm 2 days after the water change, it was back up to .32 ppm. A change of .1 ppm increase in a single 24 hour period.

I'm going to continue the increased dosage of 10-15 ml a day. I was thinking if I was getting close to target I should ease up, but, my scrubber isn't keeping up with what must be bound up in sand and rocks. The water changes are expensive to change out 85-100 gallons per water change. Nearly a whole bucket of reef crystals for 1 water change at 1.025 salinity.

 

[Treefer32]

Well, swinging between .22 and .32 ppm phosphates. Trying to get it to under .20. I think corals would be a lot happier with that. But, as soon as I'm close to .20 it jumps back up to .32... I'm dosing 20 ml of phosphate-e a day now and that keeps the phosphates swinging daily. . . . I've not dosed any aminos or reefroids now for 2 months. just feeding a partial sheet of nori a day and 1-2 frozen food feedings per day. I have seen more critters - snails and asterina starfish coming out of the rocks and onto the glass. Wondering if food supplies are running low inside the rocks. Hopefully?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Does LC cause rises in PH. My pH is hitting 8.31. where the highest it before I dosed LC was 8.1. Just odd.

I know this is a bit older, but I cannot see how lanthanum dosing will cause a direct rise in pH. Precipitation of lanthanum phosphate and lanthanum carbonate will both tend to lower pH, though the effect should also be small.

 

[Treefer32]

@Randy Holmes-Farley A question on bound phosphates in rock and sand. I'm assuming, at some point, phosphates bound up in my rock. My ph has been steady for the last 2 years between 8 and 8.2 daily. So, it sounds like for phosphates to bind to rock it needs to be in the 7.9 range. So, is there anyway to determine how much are bound up in the rock work or sand?

So, early on, 3 years ago this coming June, I lost 16 fish due to a variety of disease, all of where I discovered were onset from a heater that was electricuting the tank. It took 3-4 weeks to kill all the fish. Most of them went into rocks, buried themselves in the sand and disappeared. I got a few out, but many decomposed in the rock work. (350 gallon system.) My algae scrubber went nuts for about 3 months. I had the tank go fallow with just two fish that survived the electrocutions for about 6 months before I added more fish. Which allowed any phosphates, etc to be filtered out. My Scrubber eventually struggled to grow anything more than slime at the 4-5 month mark.

I'm hoping most of the organics were removed over that fallow period.

1. Would organics from 16-17 corpses be bound in the rocks now being released?

2. Every morning I see tons of amphipod skeletons on the surface of my tank. I would say it's in the hundreds of skeletons... All slowly being skimmed out through the overflows, but they just float around. I believe these are molts. Which is awesome. I have thousands and thousands of amphipods molting every night if that's the case.. Do molts contribute to phosphates, if they just float around on the surface of the tank?

3. My Dragon wrasse constantly is digging, moving rocks, coral skeletons (I left a few in the tank for him to play with) and moving my sand bed around -literally moving mounds of sand daily). Would organics in the sand being released everyday contribute to the problem instead of leaving it there for it to be broken down by bacteria in the sand?

4. The rock I used was in a previous 220 gallon tank, it had been in cold storage for 2.5 years (dry) I hosed it off, but didn't bleach or cure it when I reused it. So, previous bound organics were part of the new cycle...

Ultimately the question is, given the unique situation reused old dead rock, lots of dead fish corpses, and lots of decaying molts nightly, is there anyway to know how much is still in the rocks. Will it be years before the rocks come clean and release their last bit of phosphates, or is it just a matter of keeping the water column low and within a few months whatever is bound in the rocks will be gone if the water around them is kept at undetectable phosphates for a period of time?

 

[Treefer32]

Quick update: I'm dosing around 25 ml of phosphate-e a day mixed with 16 oz of RODI water. I've brought my Phosphates from .66 2 months ago down to .11 - .13 (Tested daily).

I cannot seem to get them to go below .11. Yesterday I dosed 25 ml of phosphate-E and today it tested at .13 ppm. .02 ppm higher than yesterday.

I'm thinking I may need to do two doses of phosphate - e twice a day to get anything that's leaching out of my rocks, sand, and sump out and decrease the values. I'd like to stop dosing phosphate-E at some point, but not sure when I can do that?

I've got a ton of salt coming, enough to do a 100% water change. I'll still only do 85-100 gallons at a time and change out 100% over the next month to get them down and in a controlled status. My scrubber is still going nuts growing algae rapidly. My DI just started showing 2 TDS today so I'll be swapping that out with fresh resin.

How long should this take to get this under managed status vs. needing to dose phosphate E daily?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Randy Holmes-Farley A question on bound phosphates in rock and sand. I'm assuming, at some point, phosphates bound up in my rock. My ph has been steady for the last 2 years between 8 and 8.2 daily. So, it sounds like for phosphates to bind to rock it needs to be in the 7.9 range. So, is there anyway to determine how much are bound up in the rock work or sand?

So, early on, 3 years ago this coming June, I lost 16 fish due to a variety of disease, all of where I discovered were onset from a heater that was electricuting the tank. It took 3-4 weeks to kill all the fish. Most of them went into rocks, buried themselves in the sand and disappeared. I got a few out, but many decomposed in the rock work. (350 gallon system.) My algae scrubber went nuts for about 3 months. I had the tank go fallow with just two fish that survived the electrocutions for about 6 months before I added more fish. Which allowed any phosphates, etc to be filtered out. My Scrubber eventually struggled to grow anything more than slime at the 4-5 month mark.

I'm hoping most of the organics were removed over that fallow period.

1. Would organics from 16-17 corpses be bound in the rocks now being released?

2. Every morning I see tons of amphipod skeletons on the surface of my tank. I would say it's in the hundreds of skeletons... All slowly being skimmed out through the overflows, but they just float around. I believe these are molts. Which is awesome. I have thousands and thousands of amphipods molting every night if that's the case.. Do molts contribute to phosphates, if they just float around on the surface of the tank?

3. My Dragon wrasse constantly is digging, moving rocks, coral skeletons (I left a few in the tank for him to play with) and moving my sand bed around -literally moving mounds of sand daily). Would organics in the sand being released everyday contribute to the problem instead of leaving it there for it to be broken down by bacteria in the sand?

4. The rock I used was in a previous 220 gallon tank, it had been in cold storage for 2.5 years (dry) I hosed it off, but didn't bleach or cure it when I reused it. So, previous bound organics were part of the new cycle...

Ultimately the question is, given the unique situation reused old dead rock, lots of dead fish corpses, and lots of decaying molts nightly, is there anyway to know how much is still in the rocks. Will it be years before the rocks come clean and release their last bit of phosphates, or is it just a matter of keeping the water column low and within a few months whatever is bound in the rocks will be gone if the water around them is kept at undetectable phosphates for a period of time?

Phosphate will bind to rock at any pH attained in a reef aquarium. While there is some pH effect on how much binds, the bigger driving force is the amount in the water. More in the water means more on the rock and sand surfaces.

There is no easy way to know in advance how much might be released from rock except by trying it. Phosphate from decaying organics will be especially hard to judge in a short period of time.