Zacks 65 gallon Corner Reef

[Zack K]

Nice PBT. Hope he stays healthy for ya.

Thanks! He’s pretty, active, and friendly. Looking a little slim, but with live foods hopefully he fattens up quickly.
-Zack, who will probably get reprimanded

 

[SashimiTurtle]

I'm concerned with the velvet... feed him nori 24/7 and he'll fatten up quick. Did the same with my Atlantic blue tang. Everytime I saw the nori gone I put another sheet up. Few weeks he was fat as a hog and happy as could be... until the velvet and I almost lost him. Then he died at the LFS when I traded him such a beautiful fish.

Not being a Debby downer, but I would have qt and medications on hand.

 

[Zack K]

I'm concerned with the velvet... feed him nori 24/7 and he'll fatten up quick. Did the same with my Atlantic blue tang. Everytime I saw the nori gone I put another sheet up. Few weeks he was fat as a hog and happy as could be... until the velvet and I almost lost him. Then he died at the LFS when I traded him such a beautiful fish.

Not being a Debby downer, but I would have qt and medications on hand.

I’m sorry to hear. They are absolutely stunning. Yes, I do have QT and All meds but Prazi. We shall wait and see. I won’t be hesitant to pull him. Hoping the good ole fashion @PaulB feeding approach avails one last time.
I don’t plan on adding any more fish so if I can get this powder blue immune. I will be set.
-Zack, who is ready for this challenge.

 

[Zack K]

So the PB is showing some “Scratching” or “Flashing” whatever tickles your fancy. He is picking at some nori at the moment but Fresh food diet to start back up again tonight. Clams, Shrimp, Rods Frozen, frozen BBS tonight an tomorrow morning and starting tomorrow night, going to go full Fresh and have this:
Clam
Live BBS
Pods
Phyto
Shrimp
Rods (Frozen)

And white worms to come shortly after. Hopefully he fattens up and can fend this off. I do have the QT tank out and 20g of RODI water waiting for the salt... fingered crossed. I really don’t want to remove all the fish.
-Zack, who lives on the edge

 

[Zack K]

I picked up Live foods Today,
Clams
Blackworms
BBS
Shrimp

Also some frozen:
Mysis
Rods

I will start feeding this and see if we get a response. Hopefully for the better. Right now he is l icing munching on Nori. Which is good. Now if only I can get my hands on some vitimans to soak it in first.
-Zack

 

[Zack K]

Been a bit dead in here lately. So update time

I had a short and brief conversation with @4FordFamily just now. Even though it was short he lead me to something I wish I had read months ago. His article on Acanthurus tangs and Ich Management. The timeline he provides, from the time they enter to death is sadly right on track with the timeline of my PBT. So I have a couple of options. I can :
1) Hope this one is special
2) Slowly watch this beautiful fish fade away
3) Reaquascape the tank without fish! Because it won’t be possible to catch them with the rocks.
So what does everyone think? Votes? @Katrina71 @Robin Haselden @Brew12 @saltyfilmfolks

 

[Brew12]

Zack, let me preface this by saying I am a big Paul B fan and I have read countless studies that prove the science is sound behind his methods. If I ever would start a new tank, I would be very tempted to forgo all QT and run a disease management system.

I think it best to do a pro's and con's.
Positives:
1) Your feeding plan is fantastic.
2) The PBT looks to be the only aggressive fish in the system.
3) You have other immune fish to act as decoys for the parasites.

Negatives:
1) Its a small tank for a PBT.
2) Its a small PBT.

What I don't know is how stable your system is. If you can maintain stable water chemistry and temperature you may have a chance. If you have a lot of microfauna and pods it will help and I don't know where you are at with those.

Is it possible you can succeed? Sure. Is it likely? I'm not sure.

 

[4FordFamily]

There are some fish that can do fine with ich management. Many gobies, wrasse, clownfish, damsels, even some tangs from the zebrasoma family or very hardy acanthurus tangs like the occasional orange shoulder tang — but unfortunately velvet is far too prevalent these days, and outside of that it’s a massive gamble you’ll eventually lose, or more succinctly the fish will lose. You will lose some of the hardier species fish as well, but it’s possible. I did it myself for years, as I wrote.

It’s just my .02. I also agree there’s credence to PaulB’s methods, but find them to be nearly impossible for the majority of hobbyists to follow in full. People may try part of his methods (IE simply not quarantining and feeding well) and this is almost guaranteed to lead to failure eventually—- even in the short run.

 

[Brew12]

There are some fish that can do fine with ich management. Many gobies, wrasse, clownfish, damsels, even some tangs from the zebrasoma family or very hardy acanthurus tangs like the occasional orange shoulder tang — but unfortunately velvet is far too prevalent these days, and outside of that it’s a massive gamble you’ll eventually lose, or more succinctly the fish will lose. You will lose some of the hardier species fish as well, but it’s possible. I did it myself for years, as I wrote.

It’s just my .02. I also agree there’s credence to PaulB’s methods, but find them to be nearly impossible for the majority of hobbyists to follow in full. People may try part of his methods (IE simply not quarantining and feeding well) and this is almost guaranteed to lead to failure eventually—- even in the short run.

Agreed.

If it was as easy as feeding Rods and skipping QT the Fish Disease section of the forums would be nearly empty. There is a reason that the people who have the most success with it, including Acanthurus Tangs, have 20+ years experience in keeping reefs.

Which gets back to, can you do it? Possibly. Is it likely? Hard to say yes. However, I know you said a tank upgrade was in the future plans. If it is in the near future enough that would be a good excuse to catch and QT everyone.

 

[Zack K]

I appreciate the replies.
Brew, I do have rock solid parameters. That could be a good and bad thing. I still can’t figure out my Alkalinity. My NYOS kit reads 16-18. But that doesn’t sound remotely correct. But at least it’s stable[emoji6]. I have Aton if Pods as I have to keep my Mandarin Happy, and my microfauna has to be deep in and amongst the rocks because I never see any strong issues. My sandbed may be a little microfauna weak because of the Sandsifter but.

Jason, I do agree that their are many easier fish, as all of my fish have been geared towards Ich and Velvet management vs QT. I knew this was going to be a tough battle, just didn’t realize exactly how tough it really was. If you only got 1 out of 50-60 to live a year, it sounds like a large challenge. As much as I have dealt with management, odds are definitely against me, and now that I have the PBT what are my options with him?
-Zack, who is having deep thoughts

 

[Brew12]

I appreciate the replies.
Brew, I do have rock solid parameters. That could be a good and bad thing. I still can’t figure out my Alkalinity. My NYOS kit reads 16-18. But that doesn’t sound remotely correct. But at least it’s stable[emoji6]. I have Aton if Pods as I have to keep my Mandarin Happy, and my microfauna has to be deep in and amongst the rocks because I never see any strong issues. My sandbed may be a little microfauna weak because of the Sandsifter but.

Jason, I do agree that their are many easier fish, as all of my fish have been geared towards Ich and Velvet management vs QT. I knew this was going to be a tough battle, just didn’t realize exactly how tough it really was. If you only got 1 out of 50-60 to live a year, it sounds like a large challenge. As much as I have dealt with management, odds are definitely against me, and now that I have the PBT what are my options with him?
-Zack, who is having deep thoughts

How much work are you willing to do?

There was a study done in the early 1980's that showed how to develop immunity to Ich in fish. Ideally, it will also work with the PBT. The problem? You have to catch him at least 3 times.

In this study, they exposed the fish to high levels of Cryptocaryon, and then pulled the fish and treated it with copper to clear the infection. They then exposed the fish to high levels of Crypto again. And again, once it showed symptoms they cleared it up with copper again. They did this a third time and found that over 90% of the fish treated this way had developed an immunity and were asymptomatic when exposed to Crypto the 4th time.

Will this work? No idea. Is it a lot of work for you and stressful on the fish? You bet. If you really want to keep the fish it may be your best bet imo.

 

[4FordFamily]

How much work are you willing to do?

There was a study done in the early 1980's that showed how to develop immunity to Ich in fish. Ideally, it will also work with the PBT. The problem? You have to catch him at least 3 times.

In this study, they exposed the fish to high levels of Cryptocaryon, and then pulled the fish and treated it with copper to clear the infection. They then exposed the fish to high levels of Crypto again. And again, once it showed symptoms they cleared it up with copper again. They did this a third time and found that over 90% of the fish treated this way had developed an immunity and were asymptomatic when exposed to Crypto the 4th time.

Will this work? No idea. Is it a lot of work for you and stressful on the fish? You bet. If you really want to keep the fish it may be your best bet imo.

Yep, the other thing to consider is that this probably won’t help, the symptoms he described (swimming in to powerheads, flashing and scratching a lot, hiding from light) all imply velvet. That was a private convo though so the casual reader may not know!

 

[Zack K]

Agreed. I actually have run across an article on the brew. The only reason I was hesitant was the fact, as ford said, I am fighting 2 beasts at once. Ich can be a lot easier to hide IME than Velvet. I have had Butterfly’s live for years in an Ich tank, but not so much in a Velvet tank. Velvet is such a tough and fast acting disease, I haven’t found a way to break the code with butterflys. Unfortunately I am on the same road and Jason, only with Butterflies, not tangs. After reading your article though, I may be done. It’s not worth the fish’s lives for my stubbornness.

 

[4FordFamily]

Agreed. I actually have run across an article on the brew. The only reason I was hesitant was the fact, as ford said, I am fighting 2 beasts at once. Ich can be a lot easier to hide IME than Velvet. I have had Butterfly’s live for years in an Ich tank, but not so much in a Velvet tank. Velvet is such a tough and fast acting disease, I haven’t found a way to break the code with butterflys. Unfortunately I am on the same road and Jason, only with Butterflies, not tangs. After reading your article though, I may be done. It’s not worth the fish’s lives for my stubbornness.

It’s obviously completely your decision. Lord knows I did my fair share of stubborn... unfortunately many many fish suffered. This is actually why I’m so motivated to help other fish. I cannot right my wrongs but I can try to help others!

 

[Brew12]

It’s obviously completely your decision. Lord knows I did my fair share of stubborn... unfortunately many many fish suffered. This is actually why I’m so motivated to help other fish. I cannot right my wrongs but I can try to help others!

I'm lucky. I've had fish for 15 months now. Once they get to my DT I have only lost a few Anthias and a yellow tang to unknown causes. I attribute my success to having read many of Humblefishes posts prior to setting up my tank. I can't tell you how blessed I feel to have started by using good quarantine.

 

[Zack K]

So it has been 2 weeks since the PBT was added. He is a very aggressive eater! He is a model citizen....at the moment... and had had his fair share of ups and downs. Earlier this week( Ehh Tuesday-This morning) he has looked “sugar coated”. He never stopped eating though, or showed flashing, or swimming into the power head. By the number and size of the spots it was velvet has reared its ugly head. He seems to be cleared up this evening and is munching foods like they are going out of style. On another note, I finally brought home the Male Manderin for my Female that I paid for over a month ago. Very big and fat, and personable. The female went right up to him very shortly he landed on the bottom of the tank, and was like a cat peeking over rock at him. When I left they were hovering the rockwork together. Hopefully all will stay well. Will grab pictures Tomorrow!
-Zack

 

[Zack K]

So I the worst case of velvet I have seen by far as hit today. Fish that are sugar coated:
Powder Blue Tang
4 Pink Skunk Clownfish
3 Blue Green Chromis
Canary Blenny

Not effected as of yet
Firefish
Diamond goby
Percula Clown
2 Target Mandarins

We shall see how this round plays out.

-Zack

 

[Brew12]

Poor guys.

 

[Zack K]

Poor guys.

Yea we shall see. So far everyone looked to at least eat a little bit. The tang is just kinda looking at the Nori though.

 

[Brew12]

Yea we shall see. So far everyone looked to at least eat a little bit. The tang is just kinda looking at the Nori though.

The nice thing is, is that if they do pull through they should have gained an adaptive immunity to velvet. It shouldn't be a problem again unless you have a major tank stress event. Fingers crossed!