ZEOvit issues?

[Gablami]

I basically had this same question about 6 months ago. I was running full zeovit. These days I don't think it's hard to achieve a ULNS. You don't need zeolites and a reactor to achieve that. But I started to question why I was running zeo in the first place. All these great tanks are running nutrients. Why am I paying all this money to take nutrients away and add it back in? (pohls has a lot of nitrate in it.). I decided to wean off the stones. Slowly decreased the flow through the reactor, threw in a bunch of siporax, started a fuge, and dosed nopox instead of Zeostart. Haven't looked back since.

I think it's pretty common to have elevated phosphate and no nitrate with zeo. You basically need to have it on just the right balance, where there is enough nitrate is present after zeolite, to be taken up with phosphate with carbon dosing. You could decrease the flow through the reactor, have on-off time, or start dosing potassium nitrate. Good luck!

 

[iemsparticus]

If you like fish you should want what's best – which is fish that are healthy enough to breed and live long enough to die of old age.

And yes you are so limiting your livestock – before I even showed up. You're not planning on 20-30 fish or 40-50 fish, so you're already limiting the number. 15-16 is an arbitrary range, so you can probably be just as happy at another arbitrary range....let the fish decide what that range is though. What you need is a prioritized list of what fish you want to add....start with those most important to you. I think it'll be hard to go wrong this way.

BTW, notice I'm not saying what the correct range is. Stock the tank slowly....1-2 fish at a time....with several weeks in between additions. You might only get to 5-10 and think it's great. Or maybe 10-20 or more. Who knows. Stop when it seems like the correct amount, based on the care required from you, based on how the tank itself responds over time, and above all – how well the fish do.

What I meant to convey was that I already have 11 fish in my tank right now, with 3 just started in the QT... they will be there about 5 more weeks. After they go in, it's possible I may add another couple. By "not limiting my livestock" I meant that I'm not doing the 2-3 small fish in a reef tank only thing.

What do you think about using something like ZEOvit as opposed to the more common (seemingly, at least) approach of having some level of nutrients, and using GFO/Carbon/UV/etc... to clean up as needed?

 

[iemsparticus]

I am at the one year point on my Zeovit tank I began with cured dry rock. I am sold on it. Nitrates and phosphates hover around 0.05. I am pretty much thru the nasty stages with algae. Just dealing with slime algae that grows on the glass. I have mostly soft corals and they are doing great. Of course I dose with the other Zeovit products for coral health but only at about half their recommended dosage. I think you just need to be patient and work thru all the growing pains of a new tank. Stability is key.

How long did it take to balance out your system with the cured dry rock? I just started having my pump alternate between being on and off every three hours... I'm hopeful that was the link I was missing.

 

[Smo]

How long did it take to balance out your system with the cured dry rock? I just started having my pump alternate between being on and off every three hours... I'm hopeful that was the link I was missing.

That was possibly the issue. I have been running my Zeovit reactor 3 hrs on / 3 hrs off since the start. I run my skimmer continuously, however, since it appears to work better when stable over long periods. I have all Pukani rock too, which I cured for over two months using LC (no acid wash).
I never saw a phosphate spike during tank cycling. Highest it got was 0.08 ppm. I use Red Sea Pro test kits. Nitrates got up to 6 or 7 ppm in the first month but was well below 1.0 by the end of the second month and < 0.1 in the 3rd month. I performed weekly 10% water changes and slowly added fish.
Not sure I understand the arguments for high cost to follow a Zeovit regimen. It's often on sale and goes a long way in my 70 G system. Again, I only dose the coral supplements at roughly half the recommended rates since my tank is not yet fully populated.

 

[mcarroll]

What do you think about using something like ZEOvit as opposed to the more common (seemingly, at least) approach of having some level of nutrients, and using GFO/Carbon/UV/etc... to clean up as needed?

ULNS systems are simply poorly understood...and in that way they seem a little dangerous. The fact that nutrients go in easy, but don't come out easy is not a concept that's on the public radar.

Personally, I'd rather have a good old fashioned algae bloom. No more understanding is required as it is with ULNS, and snails and fish eat that kind of algae! What's the problem?

I don't think "cleanup" like you mean is an adequate strategy to be honest....not cleanup by us anyway as we don't understand it. Clean up is for the CUC.

For "clean up" to work "as advertised" would mean you have to be able to pollute a tank and then remediate that pollution with some magic chemical.

That sounds good in a sentence, but it denies the reality of what happens in a tank when you flood it with nutrients. Which is to say – things like bacteria and other microbes grow and use it up. Algae are the best at this as they can bloom and use up vast quantities in a very short time.

In other words, the pollution you add (in the form of food) doesn't just sit around in pools waiting for the heroic tank keeper to swoop in with some orange and black powder to save the day. That's like trying to cure a hangover by sweeping up the party mess. You wish!! The damage is already done.

None of these things are evil and all deserve to be used when needed, which should only be on a short term basis. If your husbandry depends on them....you may be doing it wrong:

• GFO – easy to abuse – causes P-starvation with many negative side effects.
• Carbon dosing – easy to abuse – causes N-starvation AND known to cause negative changes in the microbial community.
• UV – expensive....which is OK for "as needed, on a short term basis" but seems short-sighted as a husbandry plan. Didn't know this until recently but it's possible for UV to create nitrite from nitrates in the tank. A reason to "use as directed" at most.

Growing beaucoup corals and algae+grazers are the most-best correct "system" to "export nutrients". It's just working with the system (nature) instead of against it.

Many ULNS folks wind up here:
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?
or here:
Bryopsis Cure: My Battle With Bryopsis Using Fluconazole
...just for two examples.

Lots of examples of bad ways to use GFO and carbon dosing there.

For some examples of why ULNS isn't even a good idea to begin with though, check out some of my blog posts about nutrients and corals. Nutshell summary: None of the research even hypothetically adds up to us having ULNS as a goal. It's certainly not the ideal it once was thought to be.

Link to the Nutrients section on my blog. If corals are your main focus, the Coral section might have a different twist and leave out some of that algae-realated articles. And last, here are some particular articles to prime you:

• Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality
  
• Nitrogen cycling in corals: the key to understanding holobiont functioning?
  
• Impacts of nutrient enrichment on coral reefs: new perspectives and implications for coastal management and reef survival
  
• Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean

It might be interesting to dig around and see the stuff on algae that's related too.

 

[iemsparticus]

ULNS systems are simply poorly understood...and in that way they seem a little dangerous. The fact that nutrients go in easy, but don't come out easy is not a concept that's on the public radar.

Personally, I'd rather have a good old fashioned algae bloom. No more understanding is required as it is with ULNS, and snails and fish eat that kind of algae! What's the problem?

I don't think "cleanup" like you mean is an adequate strategy to be honest....not cleanup by us anyway as we don't understand it. Clean up is for the CUC.

For "clean up" to work "as advertised" would mean you have to be able to pollute a tank and then remediate that pollution with some magic chemical.

That sounds good in a sentence, but it denies the reality of what happens in a tank when you flood it with nutrients. Which is to say – things like bacteria and other microbes grow and use it up. Algae are the best at this as they can bloom and use up vast quantities in a very short time.

In other words, the pollution you add (in the form of food) doesn't just sit around in pools waiting for the heroic tank keeper to swoop in with some orange and black powder to save the day. That's like trying to cure a hangover by sweeping up the party mess. You wish!! The damage is already done.

None of these things are evil and all deserve to be used when needed, which should only be on a short term basis. If your husbandry depends on them....you may be doing it wrong:

• GFO – easy to abuse – causes P-starvation with many negative side effects.
• Carbon dosing – easy to abuse – causes N-starvation AND known to cause negative changes in the microbial community.
• UV – expensive....which is OK for "as needed, on a short term basis" but seems short-sighted as a husbandry plan. Didn't know this until recently but it's possible for UV to create nitrite from nitrates in the tank. A reason to "use as directed" at most.

Growing beaucoup corals and algae+grazers are the most-best correct "system" to "export nutrients". It's just working with the system (nature) instead of against it.

Many ULNS folks wind up here:
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?
or here:
Bryopsis Cure: My Battle With Bryopsis Using Fluconazole
...just for two examples.

Lots of examples of bad ways to use GFO and carbon dosing there.

For some examples of why ULNS isn't even a good idea to begin with though, check out some of my blog posts about nutrients and corals. Nutshell summary: None of the research even hypothetically adds up to us having ULNS as a goal. It's certainly not the ideal it once was thought to be.

Link to the Nutrients section on my blog. If corals are your main focus, the Coral section might have a different twist and leave out some of that algae-realated articles. And last, here are some particular articles to prime you:

• Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality
  
• Nitrogen cycling in corals: the key to understanding holobiont functioning?
  
• Impacts of nutrient enrichment on coral reefs: new perspectives and implications for coastal management and reef survival
  
• Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean

It might be interesting to dig around and see the stuff on algae that's related too.

Ha, well... ask and thou shalt receive, eh?

Thanks for all the info... I will definitely peruse it all.

 

[leicaguy]

I used KZ for about 7 years, you really have to get a great feel for the system, what to dose when to dose and solutions for problems , The tank was started with live rock, 350G all Zeovit,slow slow slow adding live stock, really liked coral snow! SMO is right half the dose they recommend, I had great colors, used a Ca reactor Apex etc
Research this well it can work but you need a deep understanding of the system and to follow it to the letter
I worked hard at it and had good results, today I use triton and getting excellent results ! so go figure. Good luck my friend

 

[1stNoel]

I have started ZEOvit but my corals are just having a negative reaction. To be fair, I don't think it's the zeovit. Prior to switching, I added 150 lbs of man-made rock to an established system (which caused a KH spike) and also had a cyano bloom in my refugium (which the die-off caused NO3 & PO4 to spike). In switching from NOPOX to ZEOvit, it seems that allowing the NOPOX to phase out while letting ZEO bacteria to populate means there's not enough of either in the tank to effectively battle the spike in NO3 & PO4...which is causing a massive impact to all colors (receding tissue or outright STN).

I'm going to switch back to NOPOX, as I don't think my corals are in a position to wait things out (I'm almost a month in, and things have progressively gotten worse).

I am going to start a separate 55 gallon tank, to give ZEOvit a fair start from scratch. I already have the supplements and equipment, so I can start a new project/thread entitled "Red Sea & ZEOvit battle head to head".

 

[iemsparticus]

I have started ZEOvit but my corals are just having a negative reaction. To be fair, I don't think it's the zeovit. Prior to switching, I added 150 lbs of man-made rock to an established system (which caused a KH spike) and also had a cyano bloom in my refugium (which the die-off caused NO3 & PO4 to spike). In switching from NOPOX to ZEOvit, it seems that allowing the NOPOX to phase out while letting ZEO bacteria to populate means there's not enough of either in the tank to effectively battle the spike in NO3 & PO4...which is causing a massive impact to all colors (receding tissue or outright STN).

I'm going to switch back to NOPOX, as I don't think my corals are in a position to wait things out (I'm almost a month in, and things have progressively gotten worse).

I am going to start a separate 55 gallon tank, to give ZEOvit a fair start from scratch. I already have the supplements and equipment, so I can start a new project/thread entitled "Red Sea & ZEOvit battle head to head".

That will be an interesting one for sure... I'd love to follow it.

 

[Lowefx]

I basically had this same question about 6 months ago. I was running full zeovit. These days I don't think it's hard to achieve a ULNS. You don't need zeolites and a reactor to achieve that. But I started to question why I was running zeo in the first place. All these great tanks are running nutrients. Why am I paying all this money to take nutrients away and add it back in? (pohls has a lot of nitrate in it.). I decided to wean off the stones. Slowly decreased the flow through the reactor, threw in a bunch of siporax, started a fuge, and dosed nopox instead of Zeostart. Haven't looked back since.

I think it's pretty common to have elevated phosphate and no nitrate with zeo. You basically need to have it on just the right balance, where there is enough nitrate is present after zeolite, to be taken up with phosphate with carbon dosing. You could decrease the flow through the reactor, have on-off time, or start dosing potassium nitrate. Good luck!

So in my 120g, I've reduced zeostart to .03 5ml once a day...maybe. (recommended. 5ml 2x daily) but I also read that dosing zeostart also feeds the dino problem. Recently I've seen My no3 well over 4ppm and po4 steady between .06 .08 i fose 5 drops of zeobak 2x weekly. My question is what would cause high nitrate but not po4? All of my LPS are dieing off one by one and I don't know why. Tank is a year old, started with dry sand and dry rock. I have started my own thread if you'd like to take a look. I don't want to hijack this one. I am very I terested in everyone's results.

 

[Lowefx]

I could use help here too
https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/322159/

LPS slowly dieing through out the tank.

 

[iemsparticus]

So in my 120g, I've reduced zeostart to .03 5ml once a day...maybe. (recommended. 5ml 2x daily) but I also read that dosing zeostart also feeds the dino problem. Recently I've seen My no3 well over 4ppm and po4 steady between .06 .08 i fose 5 drops of zeobak 2x weekly. My question is what would cause high nitrate but not po4? All of my LPS are dieing off one by one and I don't know why. Tank is a year old, started with dry sand and dry rock. I have started my own thread if you'd like to take a look. I don't want to hijack this one. I am very I terested in everyone's results.

How long have you been running ZEOvit? Unless you are in the first two weeks, the recommended dose of ZEOstart is 1-2ml per 250 gal daily, and it's recommended that the dose is split and done throughout the day. On a 120 gal system, this wouldn't be anywhere close to 5ml 2x daily.

They also state that over dosing has a negative effect on the reduction of NO3 and PO4, and if they wont go down after a few weeks, you should reduce the dose. Sounds to me like you are over dosing ZEOstart.

 

[Lowefx]

How long have you been running ZEOvit? Unless you are in the first two weeks, the recommended dose of ZEOstart is 1-2ml per 250 gal daily, and it's recommended that the dose is split and done throughout the day. On a 120 gal system, this wouldn't be anywhere close to 5ml 2x daily.

They also state that over dosing has a negative effect on the reduction of NO3 and PO4, and if they wont go down after a few weeks, you should reduce the dose. Sounds to me like you are over dosing ZEOstart.

dang auto correct, .5ml 2x daily but I have reduced it to .3ml 2x daily the last 6 months. Actually lower than that. I missed the 3hrs on 3 hrs off memo, is that crucial?

 

[iemsparticus]

dang auto correct, .5ml 2x daily but I have reduced it to .3ml 2x daily the last 6 months. Actually lower than that. I missed the 3hrs on 3 hrs off memo, is that crucial?

I think so. I just started it myself... but for me what that does is increase the removal of PO4... NO3 has always been <1.

 

[ksfulk]

I've been running ZeoVit on my system for over a year, started with all dry rock and havent really had any algae issues past the first few months. That said, I have no idea what my nitrates and phosphates are - I havent ever tested for them. I also dont use any "other" additives, other than what I started using (Start, Bak, and SpongePower). Unfortunately thats not very helpful in your situation. I dont think that there's a huge difference in nutrient management between Zeo and Biopellets or other methods - it seems to be that Zeo is really good at maintaining low levels once established.

 

[leicaguy]

I used KZ for about 5 years on a 350, I am not a novice aquarist, but had terrible problems with cyano, hair algae et all, I am now using triton, highly recommend that system

 

[Lowefx]

I have been reducing my zeolites and I'm down to .25L, I added GFO and started dosing 8ml of No3pox4. My levels finally came way down and the growth on my sps have been amazing. I'm done with zeovit!

 

[Koigula]

Hard driven bacterial systems will have long term issues. I am not a long term Zeovit user as I could never get over paying such high prices for magic elixers. Cyano will arrive with this system and once the film on sand starts to arise, I cut the Acetic Anhydride zeostart 3 usage in half and feed. I am sure I will transition to a chaeto fuge but I did get results.

They system has inherent ability to remove phosphate slower than nitrates. I use GFO sparingly, like 4 tables spoons in 350 gallons to reduce levels, and then discontinue use. I went this route as ICP test showed trace amount of Zinc. GFO can reduce Zinc along with water changes. Chasing phosphate is a sign of a system that has not fully matures and that is the case with my current tank.

What most people do is follow directions on bottles and that leads to problems. I would start at 1/3rd usage recommendations with most additives. Zeovit is fully aware of these limitations. I suspect Pohls extra Special has nutrients of set this issue. I just use the 5% Pax Bellum NaNo3 to always have detectable nitrates. I am always trying to have simplier and simplier systems so might just use NaNO3 and Lanthium Chloride once a week.

I monitor levels closely and see alk uptake slow with ultra low levels. I focus mostly success based on needing to keep upping Soda Ash usage weekly on testing. I can estimate very well. I used the BRS calculator at first and now use a fudge factor to dial it in.