0 phosphates?

[boboyo]

I started my first tank in december, in feb I started to slowly upgrade to a bigger one.

I had Dinos in the first one after using too much tank water for my QT treatments for my 12 fish at the time, about a week after I transferred some old rocks, I had dinos in the new tank which I countered with heavy pellet feeding and lights off for 3 days. Everything was fine, No skimmer, no chateo, just building up nutrients. Also no water changes and no testing.

Today I did an alk test and a phosphate test. Dkh is around 8, phosphate at 0?? How is that possible?

Tank has had :
5 chromis
5 tangs (sailfin, purple, yellow, hippo, scopas)
2 engineer gobies
six line and leopard wrasses
2 cardinals
2 clowns
1 royal dottyback
1 foxface
1 mandarin (dont worry I have my copepod production and hes been doing good for 4 months now)

for like 2 months!!! including an orchid dottyback that has died and the tank smelled bad for a while.... I suspect he died in a powerhead since he likes to go in them when theyre off. I had my powerheads on on/off tidal setting so I think thats how he died since i didnt see a body.
None of the fish are adult size yet, i like to get them smaller.

I change filter socks once a week or 2 trying to bring nutrients up. I havent checked nitrate but how is 0 phosphate even possible after all this??

I feed 2 cubes daily along with 2 sheets of julian sprungs nori and every day I throw about 20 pellets of food on top of that. DAILY

tank is 125g sump is about 40g,

The test is the Hanna phosphate checker (not ultra low one).

Any insight on this would be appreciated. I do have a lot of corals, 20-30 frags, nothing too fancy other than 4 cheaper LPS.

I absolutely dont want dinos again, new rocks are green but the old ones i transferred are pretty and look mature. Aside from the 1-2 a week glass algae scrubbing and the green new rocks theres nothing. No GHA or anything that could suck up this many nutrients aside from the dozens of pineapple sponges on the old rocks.

I was going to do a water change this weekend but I guess not...

Note : I do rinse the frozen food before I feed except recently only for the brine shrimp that come in the green cubes because the LFS lady told me the green stuff is good

 

[attiland]

I started my first tank in december, in feb I started to slowly upgrade to a bigger one.

I had Dinos in the first one after using too much tank water for my QT treatments for my 12 fish at the time, about a week after I transferred some old rocks, I had dinos in the new tank which I countered with heavy pellet feeding and lights off for 3 days. Everything was fine, No skimmer, no chateo, just building up nutrients. Also no water changes and no testing.

Today I did an alk test and a phosphate test. Dkh is around 8, phosphate at 0?? How is that possible?

Tank has had :
5 chromis
5 tangs (sailfin, purple, yellow, hippo, scopas)
2 engineer gobies
six line and leopard wrasses
2 cardinals
2 clowns
1 royal dottyback
1 foxface
1 mandarin (dont worry I have my copepod production and hes been doing good for 4 months now)

for like 2 months!!! including an orchid dottyback that has died and the tank smelled bad for a while.... I suspect he died in a powerhead since he likes to go in them when theyre off. I had my powerheads on on/off tidal setting so I think thats how he died since i didnt see a body.
None of the fish are adult size yet, i like to get them smaller.

I change filter socks once a week or 2 trying to bring nutrients up. I havent checked nitrate but how is 0 phosphate even possible after all this??

I feed 2 cubes daily along with 2 sheets of julian sprungs nori and every day I throw about 20 pellets of food on top of that. DAILY

tank is 125g sump is about 40g,

The test is the Hanna phosphate checker (not ultra low one).

Any insight on this would be appreciated. I do have a lot of corals, 20-30 frags, nothing too fancy other than 4 cheaper LPS.

I absolutely dont want dinos again, new rocks are green but the old ones i transferred are pretty and look mature. Aside from the 1-2 a week glass algae scrubbing and the green new rocks theres nothing. No GHA or anything that could suck up this many nutrients aside from the dozens of pineapple sponges on the old rocks.

I was going to do a water change this weekend but I guess not...

Note : I do rinse the frozen food before I feed except recently only for the brine shrimp that come in the green cubes because the LFS lady told me the green stuff is good

You need ULR phosphate checker to see if it is really 0. If it is start dosing 0 is not the number you want.
Sorry about your fish. Just from experience the small size dead body is considered by other fish and CUC so quickly within days it is completely gone

 

[boboyo]

You need ULR phosphate checker to see if it is really 0. If it is start dosing 0 is not the number you want.
Sorry about your fish. Just from experience the small size dead body is considered by other fish and CUC so quickly within days it is completely gone

I saw the BRS comparison of ULR vs regular phosphate checker and the regular is probably at 0.03 when it reads 0. My issue is how come are the phosphates so low with such a heavy bioload and no WC or skimmer? Dosing phosphates isnt the best idea until i find out whats eating the phosphate

 

[Suohhen]

What brand of pellets and what filtration do you have? Rinsing frozen food has negligible effects and is generally thought of as a waste of time. Especially since frozen shrimp is so low in phosphate. Check out this article.

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both

Foods are by far the most important source of phosphate in most aquariums. In considering whether sources of phosphate other than foods are important, one must carefully look to the actual amounts involved to determine whether other sources are even worth trying to minimize.

reefs.com

 

[MarshallB]

I saw the BRS comparison of ULR vs regular phosphate checker and the regular is probably at 0.03 when it reads 0. My issue is how come are the phosphates so low with such a heavy bioload and no WC or skimmer? Dosing phosphates isnt the best idea until i find out whats eating the phosphate

Im in the exact same boat right now. I do not want to dose phosphate either. The only conclusion I can draw is that perhaps there is a strain of bacteria that is sucking up all the phosphate.

I removed my filter socks completely. I was having to change them every 2 days. So clearly there is plenty of stuff in the water that should be breaking down into nitrate and phosphate. Clearly there has to be a trace amount of phosphate in the water or else coral would start to suffer. I'm just going to continue to not run filter socks for the refugium light until i can get a reading.

 

[AJsReef]

What type of rock do you have? It’s not uncommon for certain types of rock to absorb rather large amounts of PO4, it’s possible that’s where a good percentage is going.

What are your nitrates as well?

As for dosing of PO4, it’s really not something to be feared assuming you have the appropriate test kit (Hanna ULR) and don’t go extremely heavy handed. It’ll probably take a few weeks of weekly testing to find a balance. FWIW, my tank consumes ~30ml of NeoPhos which is something like .03ppm a day on top of heavy feeding to maintain .04-.05ppm. The results are definitely evident in color and growth.

 

[Jeffcb]

Same thing is happening to me. Red Sea Pro test says zero P04. Starting to get Cano I guess. Its a light brown slime. Nitrates zero also. Thought about Brightwell NeoPhos with MicroBactor 7 but don't really want to. Trying to overfeed, pulled all the algae out of the refugium and thinking of turning skimmer off.

 

[AJsReef]

Same thing is happening to me. Red Sea Pro test says zero P04. Starting to get Cano I guess. Its a light brown slime. Nitrates zero also. Thought about Brightwell NeoPhos with MicroBactor 7 but don't really want to. Trying to overfeed, pulled all the algae out of the refugium and thinking of turning skimmer off.

Don’t dose MicroBactor with N/P in response to low nutrients, regardless of what the Brightwell instructions state. MB is a form of carbon dosing and would be counterintuitive to raising nutrients.

 

[Jeffcb]

Don’t dose MicroBactor with N/P in response to low nutrients, regardless of what the Brightwell instructions state. MB is a form of carbon dosing and would be counterintuitive to raising nutrients.

I have seen were people use stump remover from Home Depot. I don't really want to do that either.

 

[AJsReef]

I have seen were people use stump remover from Home Depot. I don't really want to do that either.

Stump remover is just Potassium Nitrate, no issues dosing it with in reason. Sodium Nitrate would be preferred since it wouldn’t raise Potassium.

I’ve used Brightwell products with success many times. The thing with Brightwell is that the instructions should outline in ULNS usage that MB is not needed. You can also opt to DIY with products like Loudwolf to control the ingredients you’re adding. It is relatively hard to overdose if you take your time to determine a dosage and test accordingly.

From personal experience with Dinos and other low nutrient related issues, I would act quickly with 0/0s personally.

 

[boboyo]

What brand of pellets and what filtration do you have? Rinsing frozen food has negligible effects and is generally thought of as a waste of time. Especially since frozen shrimp is so low in phosphate. Check out this article.

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both

Foods are by far the most important source of phosphate in most aquariums. In considering whether sources of phosphate other than foods are important, one must carefully look to the actual amounts involved to determine whether other sources are even worth trying to minimize.

reefs.com

The pellets are algaemax by nisfishfood.com
Im currently only running filter socks which I change every 10 days. No skimmer and no chaeto yet.

i believe dinos are starting to come back since this morning

I don’t understand how since I had done 0 water changes since I started the tank 2 months

 

[AJsReef]

FWIW, 2 cubes a day of frozen food is minimal. I feed probably close to the equivalent of 8 cubes of food in a 200g system and still dose 20ml NeoNitro and 30ml Neo Phosphate a day to hover just over 5 nitrate and .03-.05 phosphate

 

[Suohhen]

Algae can easily drive phosphate to undetectable levels even if it is not out of control in the whole system. Given that this tank is 4 or 5 months old and around 2 months since being upgraded you can expect algae outbreaks. That doesn't mean it is absolutely due to being a new setup but from my perspective it is very likely especially considering your heavy bioload on a new system.
I am familiar with NLS but not the algaemax. But I would assume it to be high is phosphate since algae is always much higher than shrimp. I also don't really know what 20 pellets really equates to, but I have a similar bioload, probably about around 25 percent smaller depending on the size of your tangs and I feed 2 cubes frozen and 1/2 tsp of a mix of TDO and Seaweed Extreme per day plus nori every few days. Feeding the right amount is critical with tangs. As for filtration I would definitely suggest adding a skimmer, fuge, turf scrubber, ect but it is your call as to when as your tank is still establishing and your fish will grow out.

 

[boboyo]

Algae can easily drive phosphate to undetectable levels even if it is not out of control in the whole system. Given that this tank is 4 or 5 months old and around 2 months since being upgraded you can expect algae outbreaks. That doesn't mean it is absolutely due to being a new setup but from my perspective it is very likely especially considering your heavy bioload on a new system.
I am familiar with NLS but not the algaemax. But I would assume it to be high is phosphate since algae is always much higher than shrimp. I also don't really know what 20 pellets really equates to, but I have a similar bioload, probably about around 25 percent smaller depending on the size of your tangs and I feed 2 cubes frozen and 1/2 tsp of a mix of TDO and Seaweed Extreme per day plus nori every few days. Feeding the right amount is critical with tangs. As for filtration I would definitely suggest adding a skimmer, fuge, turf scrubber, ect but it is your call as to when as your tank is still establishing and your fish will grow out.

The skimmer and fuge ready. When I had the skimmer running at first is when I got my first dino outbreak within a day.

for algae, I’m still waiting for them. The new rocks are pretty green but there’s nothing growing aside from the green layer on them.

so from what I’m understanding is feed more cubes? There has been new additions yesterday : 2 firefish, a Longnose butterfly (he ate at the LFS), yellow watchman and cleaner wrasse.

 

[Suohhen]

The skimmer and fuge ready. When I had the skimmer running at first is when I got my first dino outbreak within a day.

for algae, I’m still waiting for them. The new rocks are pretty green but there’s nothing growing aside from the green layer on them.

so from what I’m understanding is feed more cubes? There has been new additions yesterday : 2 firefish, a Longnose butterfly (he ate at the LFS), yellow watchman and cleaner wrasse.

How are you sure it is dinos? and even if it is it's totally typical for algae/bacteria to get a little ooc in a new setup as it takes time for a system to mature and that is generally much longer than a few months. People claim to be able to skip the 'ugly phase' with a mix of live rock and corals but this truly is not something to try and mess with as a new reefer. The best advice in this hobby is patience, stability, and a hands off approach are what make for success. Fighting algae on a new tank will only make things take longer and trying to keep nutrients low by feeding less can harm your fish.
As far as what to feed, that article I linked details the high variability of phosphate in food so choose depending on what your tank needs. But as to how much and how often I would say for sure 3x a day and how much really depends on the size of your fish. My tank is extremely mature and has heavy filtration and I the total amount I feed equates to roughly 7 to 10 cubes of frozen. It is hard to compare pellets to frozen because they are generally much higher in fat, phosphate, and ash than frozen but the fat is actually very good when you have a lot of active fish.

 

[Jeffcb]

Same thing is happening to me. Red Sea Pro test says zero P04. Starting to get Cano I guess. Its a light brown slime. Nitrates zero also. Thought about Brightwell NeoPhos with MicroBactor 7 but don't really want to. Trying to overfeed, pulled all the algae out of the refugium and thinking of turning skimmer off.

Quoting my own post. I said cano. I meant Dinos. I get them confused. I guess I will turn skimmer off.
LFS just confirmed Zeros.

 

[boboyo]

How are you sure it is dinos? and even if it is it's totally typical for algae/bacteria to get a little ooc in a new setup as it takes time for a system to mature and that is generally much longer than a few months. People claim to be able to skip the 'ugly phase' with a mix of live rock and corals but this truly is not something to try and mess with as a new reefer. The best advice in this hobby is patience, stability, and a hands off approach are what make for success. Fighting algae on a new tank will only make things take longer and trying to keep nutrients low by feeding less can harm your fish.
As far as what to feed, that article I linked details the high variability of phosphate in food so choose depending on what your tank needs. But as to how much and how often I would say for sure 3x a day and how much really depends on the size of your fish. My tank is extremely mature and has heavy filtration and I the total amount I feed equates to roughly 7 to 10 cubes of frozen. It is hard to compare pellets to frozen because they are generally much higher in fat, phosphate, and ash than frozen but the fat is actually very good when you have a lot of active fish.

It's dinos. I know what it looks like + I got a microscope for that. Theres Dinos all over the sandbed now. My nitrates are near the 20 ppm range now, prosphates 0-0.03 (since hanna reads 0.

Aside from the 1 person that said the rocks could be sucking the phosphates i cant find any other explanation. I'm posting because I'd like to find the root of my phosphates being 0, not too worried about the early dino bloom (I have a big UV)

 

[Suohhen]

The root cause of 0 phosphate is algae itself. Phosphate absorbing into rocks is only a concern with abnormally high levels. Again patience is the way.

 

[AJsReef]

The root cause of 0 phosphate is algae itself. Phosphate absorbing into rocks is only a concern with abnormally high levels. Again patience is the way.

Sorry, that’s simply incorrect. Calcium carbonate can absorb surprisingly high amounts of phosphate and will do so until saturated. Not uncommon for people to dose several ppm of phosphate and test 0 afterwards due to binding.

Curious what rock OP used to set up tank? I’m assuming something along the lines of Carib Sea life rock.

If ULR test are reading zero very likely you have zero phosphates. Do you know what type of Dinos are present?

 

[Suohhen]

Sorry, that’s simply incorrect. Calcium carbonate can absorb surprisingly high amounts of phosphate and will do so until saturated. Not uncommon for people to dose several ppm of phosphate and test 0 afterwards due to binding.

Curious what rock OP used to set up tank? I’m assuming something along the lines of Carib Sea life rock.

If ULR test are reading zero very likely you have zero phosphates. Do you know what type of Dinos are present?

I said only a concern, I did not say it can't happen and it would be very hard to prove since it doesn't happen in most setups. Also it is not the ulr. Regardless this is a new tank experiencing new tank issues and when I see someone with a new setup saying that they are fighting dinos, not doing water changes, changing filter socks once a week, ect I can't help but think they have been drinking too much of the online coolaid. Success in this hobby is bred from patience. It is as simple as that.