120g to 210g Upgrade

[Harris3005]

Hi everyone,

Rather than me starting a new thread for all my questions about this project I hope it's ok that I start one that I can just update as I go.

I'm currently in the planning stages of upgrading my tank to a 7' x 2' x 2' and I have a few things I'd like some advice on please.

Firstly I pretty much want to start over, kill and clean all my live rock before I put it in the new tank and I will be buying all new sand for it.

I have more than a few bristleworms which I'd like to try and ensure don't appear in the new tank plus a few red flatworms and some asterina stars that I'd rather not see again too.

Here are a few questions I have so far:

What's the best way to kill everything on the rock and seed it again myself?

The company making my tank have asked how many and holes I'd like drilled and where, anyone have an opinion on what I should go for in terms of this?

What size of sump should I be looking at for a tank this size? Min/Max size.

Can I plumb the sump using flexible hosing rather than PVC pipes?

I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions so I'll just put them here as I go if that's ok!

Thanks!

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

Hi everyone,

Rather than me starting a new thread for all my questions about this project I hope it's ok that I start one that I can just update as I go.

I'm currently in the planning stages of upgrading my tank to a 7' x 2' x 2' and I have a few things I'd like some advice on please.

Firstly I pretty much want to start over, kill and clean all my live rock before I put it in the new tank and I will be buying all new sand for it.

I have more than a few bristleworms which I'd like to try and ensure don't appear in the new tank plus a few red flatworms and some asterina stars that I'd rather not see again too.

Here are a few questions I have so far:

What's the best way to kill everything on the rock and seed it again myself?

The company making my tank have asked how many and holes I'd like drilled and where, anyone have an opinion on what I should go for in terms of this?

What size of sump should I be looking at for a tank this size? Min/Max size.

Can I plumb the sump using flexible hosing rather than PVC pipes?

I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions so I'll just put them here as I go if that's ok!

Thanks!

In my opinion, the best way to sterilize the rock is to let it dry out in the sun for several weeks. You could boil it, but some marine creatures release serious toxins in aerosolized form during boiling. You could go to the hospital or worse, so it's not worth it in my opinion.

The number of holes depends on what kind so system you're going to run. If you're going to run a standard dual overflow, I'd recommend at least five holes...two for drains, two for water return, and one for an emergency drain just in case you have a problem with the other drains. The locations of the holes will depend on whether you have an overflow (like a Synergy system) or weir-type system.

I would say you will need at least a 60 gallon sump, not so much for volume but to have ample room to house your return pump, skimmer, and other equipment that you may be planning. A 60 gallon sump half-full would give you around 30 gallons of overflow capacity, which should be more than enough for a tank of this size, and a skimmer for a 210 gallon system will have some size to it.

Sure, you can use flexible hose if you like. It is prone to kinking if you use the unreinforced type or much harder to work with if it is the reinforced PVC type, but it should work just the same. The transitions from hard pipe to flexible will need to be thought through carefully, but there is no reason why it wouldn't work.

Hope this helps. These are just my opinions, and others may have differing preferences.

 

[Harris3005]

In my opinion, the best way to sterilize the rock is to let it dry out in the sun for several weeks. You could boil it, but some marine creatures release serious toxins in aerosolized form during boiling. You could go to the hospital or worse, so it's not worth it in my opinion.

The number of holes depends on what kind so system you're going to run. If you're going to run a standard dual overflow, I'd recommend at least five holes...two for drains, two for water return, and one for an emergency drain just in case you have a problem with the other drains. The locations of the holes will depend on whether you have an overflow (like a Synergy system) or weir-type system.

I would say you will need at least a 60 gallon sump, not so much for volume but to have ample room to house your return pump, skimmer, and other equipment that you may be planning. A 60 gallon sump half-full would give you around 30 gallons of overflow capacity, which should be more than enough for a tank of this size, and a skimmer for a 210 gallon system will have some size to it.

Sure, you can use flexible hose if you like. It is prone to kinking if you use the unreinforced type or much harder to work with if it is the reinforced PVC type, but it should work just the same. The transitions from hard pipe to flexible will need to be thought through carefully, but there is no reason why it wouldn't work.

Hope this helps. These are just my opinions, and others may have differing preferences.

Definitely helps thanks very much!

What's the difference between an overflow and a weir, I've never had a sump before so I don't know a lot about them!

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

I don't know if I've described those accurately, but a standard weir looks something like this:

The holes would be drilled in the bottom glass panel.

Another style requires holes in the rear glass panel:

The basic difference is hole locations are not the same.

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

I guess another difference is that you have more useable volume in the tank with the second style.

 

[Harris3005]

I see now, thanks very much for the explanation! It's the second type with the holes towards the top of the tank that I'm looking to do I think.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

What's the best way to kill everything on the rock and seed it again myself?

Muriatic acid bath is the best way IME. As @AllSignsPointToFish said, do NOT boil your rock with heat...ever...

The company making my tank have asked how many and holes I'd like drilled and where, anyone have an opinion on what I should go for in terms of this?

I agree with going for 3 holes in the top back glass for an overflow. I'd personally look into either the ghost overflow or the shadow overflow. Both of those maximize the space in your tank.

What size of sump should I be looking at for a tank this size? Min/Max size.

I recommend going with the biggest sump that will fit your stand (and that your budget will allow). The biggest question is what equipment will be in your sump. That will help you determine how big a sump you need.

Can I plumb the sump using flexible hosing rather than PVC pipes?

Yes. I've done that on all of my tanks before the one I have now. However, having done both now, I can honestly say that while I like the ease of setting up the flex plumbing, I really like the arrangement, fit, and look of the hard plumbing far more. Ultimately, either one can be used though. Also, if you go with flex hose, I suggest getting black hose rather than clear to avoid algae growth inside the hose.

 

[Harris3005]

Muriatic acid bath is the best way IME. As @AllSignsPointToFish said, do NOT boil your rock with heat...ever...


I agree with going for 3 holes in the top back glass for an overflow. I'd personally look into either the ghost overflow or the shadow overflow. Both of those maximize the space in your tank.


I recommend going with the biggest sump that will fit your stand (and that your budget will allow). The biggest question is what equipment will be in your sump. That will help you determine how big a sump you need.

Yes. I've done that on all of my tanks before the one I have now. However, having done both now, I can honestly say that while I like the ease of setting up the flex plumbing, I really like the arrangement, fit, and look of the hard plumbing far more. Ultimately, either one can be used though. Also, if you go with flex hose, I suggest getting black hose rather than clear to avoid algae growth inside the hose.

Thanks very much for all the advice mate! The acid bath sounds like it might be a better option for me, being in Scotland I don't have much sun to leave the rocks out in. Especially at this time of year!

The ghost overflow looks really smart, although I don't seem to be able to find anywhere that sells them in the uk, I'll have to have a look for something close that I can get over here.

When it comes to the pipes I would just feel a bit more confident with dark hosing as I'm pretty clueless when it comes to anything DIY based!

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Thanks very much for all the advice mate! The acid bath sounds like it might be a better option for me, being in Scotland I don't have much sun to leave the rocks out in. Especially at this time of year!

The ghost overflow looks really smart, although I don't seem to be able to find anywhere that sells them in the uk, I'll have to have a look for something close that I can get over here.

When it comes to the pipes I would just feel a bit more confident with dark hosing as I'm pretty clueless when it comes to anything DIY based!

Absolutely! Glad to help!

I know eshopps makes one similar to that style of overflow. It's called the eclipse. I'm thinking they're international, but I could be wrong. Maybe check them out too as a possibility.

I hear ya on the hosing. It took my 5 tanks before I went with PVC instead of flex. Ha!

 

[Harris3005]

Don't seem to be able to find eshopps over here either! I can literally find one uk company that makes overflow weir boxes!

This is the only one I can find: http://www.phytoplus.co.uk/onlinest...ow-box-3-colours/p/57014208/category=14042840

Might just have to bite the bullet and pay shipping from over the pond for a good one.

 

[anit77]

I have a standard 210, 72x24x30, and I currently have a 90G sump that I'm in the process of swapping out with a 120G. I'm not going any bigger because it won't fit. I recommend the biggest sump you can fit in your space. The reason for my upgrade is to fit a new skimmer, SRO5000sss.

I highly recommend a "Ghost" style overflow. They are the simplest, least intrusive, highest surface skimming and quietest option available. I got mine from a member here, @TaylorPilot Exotic Marine Systems. He has a 60" that I got from him. With your length he may be able to custom make a 72" one for you. If you go that route you could have it direct shipped to your tank manufacturer to drill the holes for you.(That is if he'll ship to the UK) Then you just need to figure out your returns, I'm going over the top with mine so I just have the two 2" holes for the overflow.

With the rock you could get some Sodium Percarbonate and mix it strong. It will oxidize everything in the rock and possibly even bleach it some. This basically makes H2O2, hydrogen peroxide. Mixed strong you can make the entire tub of water a 5% to 10% plus mix of H2O2. This is the most benign way to sterilize the rock.

 

[Harris3005]

I have a standard 210, 72x24x30, and I currently have a 90G sump that I'm in the process of swapping out with a 120G. I'm not going any bigger because it won't fit. I recommend the biggest sump you can fit in your space. The reason for my upgrade is to fit a new skimmer, SRO5000sss.

I highly recommend a "Ghost" style overflow. They are the simplest, least intrusive, highest surface skimming and quietest option available. I got mine from a member here, @TaylorPilot Exotic Marine Systems. He has a 60" that I got from him. With your length he may be able to custom make a 72" one for you. If you go that route you could have it direct shipped to your tank manufacturer to drill the holes for you.(That is if he'll ship to the UK) Then you just need to figure out your returns, I'm going over the top with mine so I just have the two 2" holes for the overflow.

With the rock you could get some Sodium Percarbonate and mix it strong. It will oxidize everything in the rock and possibly even bleach it some. This basically makes H2O2, hydrogen peroxide. Mixed strong you can make the entire tub of water a 5% to 10% plus mix of H2O2. This is the most benign way to sterilize the rock.

Thank you for the advice! Mine will be 84x24x24 as it's to fit into a recess in our dining room and the stand is being made for me out of steel with a wood wrap so I will have plenty of room underneath for a good size I just wondered if there was a ratio of tank to sump size that people work to but it looks like the bigger the better from everyone's replies!

Is there a benefit in your opinion of having the return over the top rather than drilled? I like the idea of all the plumbing being hidden rather than coming over the top?

 

[anit77]

I don't know if there's an exact ratio. I've seen many people run smaller sump on large tanks and the other way around too. I like something large enough so there's plenty of space to work without having everything crammed in there. The extra water volume is next too. But there's other factors you need to look at as well. Skimmer internal or external, Calcium reactor, Fuge, ATS, Dosing and so on. What ever you do plan for enough space for a big skimmer. Even if you don't start out with a large one or think you'll need it you'll eventually have one. Might as well plan for at least for a 14x14 foot print with a height of 26" or so. This will give you plenty of room around it and the height to get the cup off easily. Keep in mind this space still won't hold a Vertex Alpha 250 or 300.

My tank is in wall, so over the top for the return is fine. One benefit is no extra holes. If I were putting one against the wall or peninsula I'd have to look at it an plan for something with a minimalist appearance while getting the flow I want.

 

[Harris3005]

I don't know if there's an exact ratio. I've seen many people run smaller sump on large tanks and the other way around too. I like something large enough so there's plenty of space to work without having everything crammed in there. The extra water volume is next too. But there's other factors you need to look at as well. Skimmer internal or external, Calcium reactor, Fuge, ATS, Dosing and so on. What ever you do plan for enough space for a big skimmer. Even if you don't start out with a large one or think you'll need it you'll eventually have one. Might as well plan for at least for a 14x14 foot print with a height of 26" or so. This will give you plenty of room around it and the height to get the cup off easily. Keep in mind this space still won't hold a Vertex Alpha 250 or 300.

My tank is in wall, so over the top for the return is fine. One benefit is no extra holes. If I were putting one against the wall or peninsula I'd have to look at it an plan for something with a minimalist appearance while getting the flow I want.

Thanks! I definitely want a large skimmer, I've always used one rated larger than the tank it's in. The vertex ones are out of my price range at the moment though, I think I'm going to go with a Marine Sources Devil SDC900 to begin with and see how I get on.

Also, I'd like to have a refugium so I'll definitely be going for the biggest size I can fit underneath so I can have a decent sized space for one.

It will sit against a wall so maybe a hole for the return would be best for me to keep it hidden!

 

[fernalfer]

I went inbetween flexible tubing and hard tubing. I did Ultra flex PVC. It bends some to help connect everything better but only bends slightly. just an option. If you look in the pic that's the farthest i could bend it on the long piece going from one side to the other.

 

[anit77]

Thanks! I definitely want a large skimmer, I've always used one rated larger than the tank it's in. The vertex ones are out of my price range at the moment though, I think I'm going to go with a Marine Sources Devil SDC900 to begin with and see how I get on.

Also, I'd like to have a refugium so I'll definitely be going for the biggest size I can fit underneath so I can have a decent sized space for one.

It will sit against a wall so maybe a hole for the return would be best for me to keep it hidden!

Hey, don't feel bad the Vertex's are out of my budget too. But around here you'd be amazed at the used stuff you can find from time to time. I have a buddy that found a Alpha 300 body for under $400US.

The SDC 900 looks like a nice skimmer, but it still may be a bit small for your 210. It's too bad Marine Sources doesn't make anything between it and the 1600. Do you have any other options?

 

[anit77]

I went inbetween flexible tubing and hard tubing. I did Ultra flex PVC. It bends some to help connect everything better but only bends slightly. just an option. If you look in the pic that's the farthest i could bend it on the long piece going from one side to the other.

That's a very clean plumbing job!

You can bend spaflex more if you heat it with a heat gun. Once you have it the way you want it dip the bend in cool water to lock it in.

 

[Harris3005]

I went inbetween flexible tubing and hard tubing. I did Ultra flex PVC. It bends some to help connect everything better but only bends slightly. just an option. If you look in the pic that's the farthest i could bend it on the long piece going from one side to the other.

That looks very smart. Pretty much exactly what I'm hoping mine will look like thank you very much for the picture! I've been trying to find this stuff for sale in the uk but don't seem to be able to find that exact type. Could you tell me the diameter so I can look for something similar?

 

[Harris3005]

Hey, don't feel bad the Vertex's are out of my budget too. But around here you'd be amazed at the used stuff you can find from time to time. I have a buddy that found a Alpha 300 body for under $400US.

The SDC 900 looks like a nice skimmer, but it still may be a bit small for your 210. It's too bad Marine Sources doesn't make anything between it and the 1600. Do you have any other options?

Yeah I see some really good stuff for sale on this site all the time but living in Scotland makes it hard to buy any of it!! Could I use two protein skimmers in a sump? For example if I used the SDC 900 plus my current Aqua One Skimmer? I currently have one at either end of my tank, just wondered if two in a sump would be ok?

I realise this isn't going to be a cheap build but I'm trying to keep the set up costs down and upgrade equipment as I go if possible.

 

[fernalfer]

That looks very smart. Pretty much exactly what I'm hoping mine will look like thank you very much for the picture! I've been trying to find this stuff for sale in the uk but don't seem to be able to find that exact type. Could you tell me the diameter so I can look for something similar?

I used all 1 inch diameter flex piping.