2 week old tank

[RockusDukakis33]

47ga RedSea Reefer. Added Agra Live sand and dry rock on 1/15/2023 (1 week old not 2 weeks old). Ran for 4 days. On Day 4 I added 2 1oz bottles of turbo stat at 6am and 2 clowns at 6pm. I let them acclimate in the bag in the tank salinty matched. Fish looked good on Day 5 and ammonia was in the safe zone on the badge and tested 0 on a salifort test. Both clowns were swimming about and looking great on Day 6 and were fed. Late on day 6 it looks like ammonia spiked near the alert section of the badge and nitrate tested at 3ppm. This morning on day 7 I did a 10% water change and ammonia has dropped back down to safe. Testing nitrate again now.

Nitrate is now reading 5ppm

 

[N1tew0lf1212]

I would say maybe private message @MnFish1 or someone you trust at this point it doesnt matter how you cycled if the other fish is fine that leads me to believe it is something else. Sorry for the hassle for just an easy answer. If you can qt the fish and talk with a person you trust about what to do. If you cant i hope everything works out but i feel as if it is a disease not a cycle related issue.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

You are 100% right. There's an entire study proving Turbo Starts' ability to keep Ammonia at safe to 0 levels for weeks. I follow the data and also took in expert advice. I respect you're opinion and for not completely attacking me. At this point, I did what I did and I just now need to know what to do for the one of two clowns that isn't looking well.

I am so sorry if I came across attacking. It is just these people who have been doing this for a while forget your new. You need the fundamentals not some get done quick.

 

[RockusDukakis33]

These fish were put into an incomplete cycle tank and suffered ammonia poisoning. They may survive or may not but certainly will have residual affects from this shortening life spans. This is evident by your admission to an ammonia spike after adding the fish. The 3ppm nitrates reading is irrelevant because of the error rate in test kits. Your tank was beginning to cycle and grow nitrifying bacteria but you rushed the process and hurt the fish. Learn from the mistake.

It's like you skimmed what I typed then focused on a couple things to make your belief be correct...

Poor wording on spiked. Ammonia never went above .05ppm.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Why would one fish be affected and not the other if this was due to the tank not being cycled?

That is a good point - water quality issues will affect all fish of the same species about equally. This applies to diseases as well, but I suspect your second clown will start showing similar symptoms in the next 24 to 36 hours. I think the fish has a gill disease, most likely velvet, Amyloodinium.
Jay

 

[Fishy888]

Just because it's not clearly suffering yet doesn't mean you haven't injured it by not following the advice everyone gave you in the other thread.

^^^^^THIS!!!!! Fish are great at hiding sickness since sick fish get eaten first in the ocean. If you did a typical freshwater acclimation in a tank that isn’t cycled properly both fish are as good as dead. I hope a miracle happens but we’ll see how it goes.

 

[Lavey29]

It's like you skimmed what I typed then focused on a couple things to make your belief be correct...

Poor wording on spiked. Ammonia never went above .05ppm.

You are not familiar with saltwater cycling. Perhaps you were given bad advice by your LFS. If you look up ammonia poisoning for reef tank fish you will see how the symptoms correlate to your first post description. Your tank was just beginning its process to cycle. There were not enough nitrifying bacteria yet to support adding 2 fish. Hence the ammonia spike and symptoms you see now. Water change helped and I would suggest another one in short order. One thing that is key in this hobby is patience. I hope your fish survive and that you continue to educate yourself in the hobby to help you be successful.

 

[MnFish1]

Look, in the end these are animals, we need to do right by them and have patients. Do it right . No matter what a product says

We have a difference of opinion on what 'doing it right is'. I have done it for 30 years. I will keep doing it the way I do it. IMHO - there are people who have tanks set up for 6 months that have the same problems as the OP, Exactly. They add non-quarantined fish. It's a fact. There is no guaranteed 'cycle'. There is no way to measure how much a tank is cycled - i.e. when can I add 6 large tangs to my 150 gallon tank, etc etc. Dr. Tim's recommend a bacteria in one day - fish in one day. They also offer another way to do it. Where is the argument. The point here is not the 'cycle' - it's what's causing the problem. Do you have any opinion on what is causing his pale - not looking in good shape fish? - Cause thats the topic IMHO

 

[N1tew0lf1212]

We have a difference of opinion on what 'doing it right is'. I have done it for 30 years. I will keep doing it the way I do it. IMHO - there are people who have tanks set up for 6 months that have the same problems as the OP, Exactly. They add non-quarantined fish. It's a fact. There is no guaranteed 'cycle'. There is no way to measure how much a tank is cycled - i.e. when can I add 6 large tangs to my 150 gallon tank, etc etc. Dr. Tim's recommend a bacteria in one day - fish in one day. They also offer another way to do it. Where is the argument. The point here is not the 'cycle' - it's what's causing the problem. Do you have any opinion on what is causing his pale - not looking in good shape fish? - Cause thats the topic IMHO

I agree

 

[MnFish1]

You are not familiar with saltwater cycling. Perhaps you were given bad advice by your LFS. If you look up ammonia poisoning for reef tank fish you will see how the symptoms correlate to your first post description. Your tank was just beginning its process to cycle. There were not enough nitrifying bacteria yet to support adding 2 fish. Hence the ammonia spike and symptoms you see now. Water change helped and I would suggest another one in short order. One thing that is key in this hobby is patience. I hope your fish survive and that you continue to educate yourself in the hobby to help you be successful.

BTW - THIS IS KEY. IF you're going to do it with bacteria and fish on day 1 - you had better know 1) - how much to feed. 2. How to slowly increase feeding. 3. The tank volume 4. A good measure of ammonia. But - I'm going to say it again - I do not think the symptoms here suggest anything to do with 'ammonia'. Second - I am not talking about cycling with live sand - some like it - I think it's expensive 'nothing'. A good bottled bacteria can safely allow fish to be added on day 1.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I don’t understand the rush to add fish. I used the so called live sand in the bag which is BS. I added smart start and still waited 6 weeks before adding any fish.

That was my point.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Again with all due respect, you people have been doing this for years. Someone new needs to learn the basics, the fundamentals. That means cycling a tank over time. What ever happened to having patients? You are setting someone new up for failure imo

 

[MnFish1]

If I were you - I would Remover your fish (all of them) - to a hospital tank, and use the copper and prazipro treatment recommended on R2R. I would leave your other tank fallow - for 45-76 days depending on what treatment you are using. In any case - Any of the obligate ammonia denitrifies are not going to be killed during this - and you can treat/QT your fish - and re-add them. Again - I appreciate the fact you did not want this to become a debate on cycling - and I'm sorry if I added to it, To me this is a disease. It should be treated - and I would start with copper. and the regular protocol.

 

[Lavey29]

BTW - THIS IS KEY. IF you're going to do it with bacteria and fish on day 1 - you had better know 1) - how much to feed. 2. How to slowly increase feeding. 3. The tank volume 4. A good measure of ammonia. But - I'm going to say it again - I do not think the symptoms here suggest anything to do with 'ammonia'. Second - I am not talking about cycling with live sand - some like it - I think it's expensive 'nothing'. A good bottled bacteria can safely allow fish to be added on day 1.

You are correct that a variety of factors come into play. I actually think the most critical is tank volume but why the rush? What does it matter to wait a week or two for normal cycle to complete? This gives you time to break in the tank, check for leaks. Make sure all equipment is functioning properly, etc.... I just think this is bad info being passed around that it is perfectly fine to add fish day one. Relying on some ammonia test strip to make sure levels are good. How many of us rely on test strips for our water parameters? Less then 5% I bet. One fish may have been healthier and stronger from the LFS thus able to handle the effects somewhat better but is it still injured? I'm guessing it is to some degree. We should be teaching new reefers the importance of patience in this hobby not telling them do everything on day one.

 

[N1tew0lf1212]

There are multiple ways to cycle a tank if you prefer the long wait then thats your way if you prefer a bottle bac thats your way doesnt mean its wrong and for all of you saying it is then there is no need for additional comments your saying something over and over arguing for no reason. Its over he did it the way he did. Now on to the only point that matters. The fish isnt ill due to cycling. So move on with it. I would say @Randy Holmes-Farley would know a thing or two about this and he gave his opinion as well as some others. Disease is the problem here not cycle so just leave it alone already.

 

[MnFish1]

Again with all due respect, you people have been doing this for years. Someone new needs to learn the basics, the fundamentals. That means cycling a tank over time. What ever happened to having patients? You are setting someone new up for failure imo

I was going to send this as a PM - but might as well say it - Since I already gave my advice to the OP. 'cycling' a tank - is somewhat antiquated. Decades ago - there were no 'bacteria in a bottle'. There have been studies done elsewhere and here on R2R - which are fairly rigorous - that suggest it's fine to a degree. To this day - you can still get people suggesting - testing nitrite is important - others just as vigorously say it's not. etc etc - there are 10,000 protocols. If you asked 100 people here their actual definition of a cycle - you could get 50 different answers - and all would be correct.

I don't mean any offense to you - or @Lavey29 it is my opinion - this issue is not related to ammonia - or cycling - its related to not quarantining fish. Ammonia toxicity (which I have seen multiple times on shipped fish) - usually resolves within a day or 2 - And Again IMHO - does not look like this. This again - to ME - looks like disease. IMHO - that should be the focus - since at a minimum - the values (again assuming valid test kits) - are in range, and non-toxic.

 

[Lavey29]

I was going to send this as a PM - but might as well say it - Since I already gave my advice to the OP. 'cycling' a tank - is somewhat antiquated. Decades ago - there were no 'bacteria in a bottle'. There have been studies done elsewhere and here on R2R - which are fairly rigorous - that suggest it's fine to a degree. To this day - you can still get people suggesting - testing nitrite is important - others just as vigorously say it's not. etc etc - there are 10,000 protocols. If you asked 100 people here their actual definition of a cycle - you could get 50 different answers - and all would be correct.

I don't mean any offense to you - or @Lavey29 it is my opinion - this issue is not related to ammonia - or cycling - its related to not quarantining fish. Ammonia toxicity (which I have seen multiple times on shipped fish) - usually resolves within a day or 2 - And Again IMHO - does not look like this. This again - to ME - looks like disease. IMHO - that should be the focus - since at a minimum - the values (again assuming valid test kits) - are in range, and non-toxic.

No offense taken, I respect your opinion, we just have different opinions on certain aspects of the OP situation. I think we all just want him to be successful and the fish to be healthy and happy in their environment.

 

[MnFish1]

You are correct that a variety of factors come into play. I actually think the most critical is tank volume but why the rush? What does it matter to wait a week or two for normal cycle to complete? This gives you time to break in the tank, check for leaks. Make sure all equipment is functioning properly, etc.... I just think this is bad info being passed around that it is perfectly fine to add fish day one. Relying on some ammonia test strip to make sure levels are good. How many of us rely on test strips for our water parameters? Less then 5% I bet. One fish may have been healthier and stronger from the LFS thus able to handle the effects somewhat better but is it still injured? I'm guessing it is to some degree. We should be teaching new reefers the importance of patience in this hobby not telling them do everything on day one.

I do not disagree with you at all. My point was 'he did it already (acclimated/cycled)' - now it's time to figure out what's wrong with the fish - right? I would not rely on an ammonia test strip - not sure where that is from. No one (including me) every told anyone to do it one way or the other - Just for the record - my only point was 'its done'. Let's not blame someone for following the instructions on a product - let's try to really figure out what's going on. I do not think its ammonia thats the problem. It's an opinion - I don't have proof per se etc - but it's my opinion. The levels mentioned should not damage/harm/etc - cause the issues seen with this fish - again assuming we are receiving accurate data. I also agree with several people who have said - the bacteria day 1 fish day 1 is more an advanced method than waiting. However - As I'm sure we all know Brandon would say that there are 100's of threads of people waiting months for their tanks that are not cycled. So - is there a 100% correct answer - IMHO no.

 

[N1tew0lf1212]

That is a good point - water quality issues will affect all fish of the same species about equally. This applies to diseases as well, but I suspect your second clown will start showing similar symptoms in the next 24 to 36 hours. I think the fish has a gill disease, most likely velvet, Amyloodinium.
Jay

Does this mean nothing. You have some very strong factual people here on your post saying disease i would go with that. Qt for any fish should be a practice yes. Did he use bottle bac yes. Could he do it with a long cycle yes. Is the bottle bac cycle wrong no. Does it still cycle the tank yes. Is there a proper way to do it yes. Does the other 1000s of tank that have used bottle bac have significant loss no.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

At this point I can feel we have all made the original poster upset and will probably never ask a question again, just because our need to be right...... I'm sorry for my part in this and I'm done with R2R