2 week old tank

[Fishy888]

^^^^^THIS!!!!! Fish are great at hiding sickness since sick fish get eaten first in the ocean. If you did a typical freshwater acclimation in a tank that isn’t cycled properly both fish are as good as dead. I hope a miracle happens but we’ll see how it goes.

I’m also sorry if my post discouraged you. I just want you to be successful and for your animals to thrive.

I thought about using bottled bacteria when I started my current reef; but I heard that some brands work and some are worthless. If you got a good batch then that’s awesome. I ended up playing it safe.

 

[CoralB]

This is called rushing and Never add fish and bacteria together. This is Not freshwater and tank needs to be properly cycled before introduction of fish. In addition to that, how were fish acclimated to tank and for how long ?
These guys are suffering from what looks like Osmotic shock and If they make it would be awesome. Add an airstone for added oxygen and hope for the best and expect the worse. There is nothing I can suggest to add.
Cycling:
Typically you want to add your bacteria and then ammonia chloride or a piece of shrimp (shrimp for 48 hours) WITH NO FISH IN THE TANK. Then you want to monitor ammonia , When your ammonia is steady at zero for 5 days and Nitrate is steady at 20 or below- You are cycled. Ignore nitrIte Unless sky high
The tank will go through two phases in which ammonia will rise then fall and nitrate will rise and fall which is normal. When fish are added, the bacteria population will increase with the new bio load, converting waste to nitrate.
Overloading tank with too many fish up front will exceed what the bacteria can handle which is why its best to stock fish slowly over the next few months so that the bacterial levels can adapt to the new loads

What test kits are you using ?

This !!!

 

[Dom]

At this point I can feel we have all made the original poster upset and will probably never ask a question again, just because our need to be right...... I'm sorry for my part in this and I'm done with R2R

What you need to understand is that sometimes, people will post questions, and shop the replies, hoping to read what they want to hear.

That being said, I get the impression that the OP is excited about their new tank, which translates into rushing the process. This is evident by the failure to properly quarantine.

I don't believe the issue the OP is having is related to the tank cycle, but due to the introduction of diseased fish into the tank.

 

[Kasrift]

Again with all due respect, you people have been doing this for years. Someone new needs to learn the basics, the fundamentals. That means cycling a tank over time. What ever happened to having patients? You are setting someone new up for failure imo

Trying not to jump on a dead horse, but I read the other thread in real time and now reading this one. I agree with this 100%. I think Reef Builders hurt new hobbyists by doing their one day tank build. I agree that bacteria in a bottle works, but there are too many factors at play for new tanks. Why not remove or mitigate one of them by waiting.

The difference between experienced reefers and new is that 1) they know how to react to save their aquatic residents (fish, coral, inverts, etc) and 2) they likely have the setup (extra hospital/quarantine tank) to react as needed, whereas a new reefer would have neither.

Having neither limits options, so extra caution never hurts, hence why many insist on patience when cycling. That is neither here no there for my comment, as others pointed out there could be disease related factors, just wanted to point out that patience will be required at some point or it will lead to failure. I think that is why so many people leave the hobby in their first year, particularly when they have roadblocks out of the gate.

 

[N1tew0lf1212]

Well it just keeps on going its disease people stop with the cycle misinformation already and do research b4 you just post your way of doing it. To each there own i honestly feel as if @revhtree needs to just remove this. None of you are giving anything factual besides just cycle cycle cycle. Thats not his question so drop it. Op stick with what the people that are addressing the actual problem yoy asked are saying and dont mind the bs

 

[RockusDukakis33]

Woke up and the fish had passed away before I could do anything for it. I'm taking a water sample to the local fish store to confirm nothing was wrong with the water as well as the fish. The owner has a 7-day alive policy so I will let the tank run longer with the one fish I have and then replace the one lost.

Fingers crossed the second one makes it out. So far he looks completely healthy. 'm going to dose some Anti Biotics just in case.

 

[brandon429]

I promised I don’t bicker with online friends about cycling just to be mean or keep beefs

Its important to recognize change in the hobby vs press it back

innovators bring change, or they relay it to the masses before the masses know/accept it

= evolution of our hobby

the change long ago, studied by Dr. Reef, engineered by bottle bac makers, is that ammonia control is now a non issue-no thought nor coaxing is required

tip a bottle into a tank, have ammonia control is just like moving from dial up internet to fiber speed

I engage these discussions solely to stop fish disease loss and wasting. There is no loss due to inadequate cycles they are due to disease, sometimes hardware issues, and sometimes acclimation means. Old school old cycling science relays simply never discuss disease preps, they hyper focus on ammonia, the one thing we don’t need them to focus on


its evident in the other thread. It’s evident in any ‘stuck cycle’ thread we can search since 2010. Nobody warns these new tankers on disease preps, they omit that portion Erin, and focus on invented ammonia fears they’ve never studied. Peers told them it’s a factor, they relay it to new cyclers and allow for no possible evolution in ammonia control this way. That’s what’s happening in this + the prior post.

we must press umpire peers to follow the change curve vs restrict it, or make their own innovations via studies and real work posts, thats why I spend time and energy redirecting cycle issues into disease issues.

this thread exemplifies every new tank coming in 2023, put all focus on prepping the tank for disease, don’t fret over ammonia.

a brightly lit, no hiding place, no benthic maturity system, skipped disease preps stocked fish from a pet store fed low quality dry feed exclusively is ripe to kill fish not by ammonia issues but by disease issues

until peers relay this in new help posts we have to keep ribbing them until they’re up to par. It wasn’t any different having to rib online peers for a decade or so until they accepted pico reefs were real and not just some trick hooked up to a secret larger water system. They come around eventually, slowly, painfully lol but change resistors do eventually come around.


they are eventually swayed by four million searchable examples on google of the very thing they originally were sure couldn’t be real.


there is a reason why searching ‘stalled reef cycle’ shows four million fish initially living just fine, not acting burned, swimming and eating normally but with a non digital test kit showing .2 ammonia *as nh4*

there’s also a reason why we can also easily, easily search out four million fully cycled reefs/running months or years/ that also show .2 nh4 on a cheap test kit: cheap test kits aren’t how we discern a cycle’s status and that ammonia reading isn’t responsible for any fish deaths at all.

heck, even a fifty year old cycling chart tells us ammonia control is done before two weeks, we had those long before seneye.


Its only reef board peers who do this, doubt well-known biological timing for ammonia control

no other hydrology industry has such debate or trouble around the extremely simple concept, no other industry resists change and evolution like reef board peers.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

As of right now he doesn't appear to be displaying signs of velvet or ich (IMO after watching videos, looking at photos and reading more). I'm hoping its just stress but I will keep monitoring tomorrow and await a response from the owner of my LFS.

I'm not upset I just want an answer on what could be wrong. I really don't think this is a tank cycle problem but I do understand your point of view. There are many user on this forum who rather use any opportunity of a sick fish in a newer tank to blame the cycling process. Many users in this same thread didn't even bother reading what I typed out and the data I provided and jumped to conclusions (I'm not including you in that statement). I have think skin and I want to learn but I tend to lean towards those who want to have all the info before giving advise and ignore those who clearly have an agenda and aren't open to another POV (once again not you)

I know you are getting pulled in a bunch of different directions here, but that clownfish is breathing over 200 gill beats per minute, that is the classic sign of gill disease and the most common of those is Amyloodinium (velvet). There are also bacterial gill diseases and some rare ones like coccidia, but the reason I landed on velvet is that it is the most common and treatable of the group.

Jay

 

[RockusDukakis33]

I know you are getting pulled in a bunch of different directions here, but that clownfish is breathing over 200 gill beats per minute, that is the classic sign of gill disease and the most common of those is Amyloodinium (velvet). There are also bacterial gill diseases and some rare ones like coccidia, but the reason I landed on velvet is that it is the most common and treatable of the group.

Jay

Thanks for the info I appreciate it. Unfortunately, he didn't make it through the night. Now I need to make sure the other one is okay. Right now they look completely normal and breathing normally. Any suggestions?

I do not have a QT. So if thats the only option I'll take him back to my LFS.

 

[New&no clue]

One thing about this hobby is there is no one way to do something. People have great success in all different ways. If you ask about QT, you will get the same discussion. Some tanks are full of 100% QT livestock; some have zero, and both have success. I saw a BRS video once about how there are so many opinions in this hobby; it can be confusing. Their advice was to find a couple of people with who you agree with their procedures and go to them for advice or questions.

 

[RockusDukakis33]

Doesn't sound like you take any advice very well. After reading your replies and finding out there's a whole other thread I would suggest getting out of the hobby if your just gonna ignore or insult anyone telling you how to do things the right way.....

Once again people are cherry-picking replies to fit whatever narrative they want. I asked for help and got accused of being lazy, not checking parameters (I did multiple times), and not caring about what I'm doing. Not one of those people actually answered my question on what I could do for the fish.

Plenty of users did reply with help and we had conversations that were extremely helpful. Some even DM'ed me which was great. Unfortunately, too many people have an agenda and were more focused on arguing about how to cycle a tank than they were on really helping me.

 

[RockusDukakis33]

Update:
I took a water sample and the fish (now deceased) to the LFS where I got him. This LFS is not a big chain and a local expert who gets a small shipment of fish in every week and specializes in pretty amazing coral. He sells out of his fish every week and there are zero reports of fish with velvet or ich on any reviews or the many local online groups that recommend him.

He tested the water parameters and Ammonia came back at 0, Nitrite at 0 and nitrate was around 7. He dipped the fish to see if parasites would fall out of his gills and none did. He stated no parasites or normal signs of velvet or ich appeared on its body. Something was wrong with the fish but the good news is it doesn't appear to be something that will affect the Clownfish still in the tank who is still looking awesome.

He will receive more Clownfish in this week and said he will replace the one I lost free of charge. He also offered to quarantine the new one for me if needed. I understand everyone's fear of a LFS saying whatever it takes to makes sales but this guy does not work that way and doesn't need to.

I will continue to monitor the parameters of the tank and monitor the remaining clown but I feel will better about the current state of the tank.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. Special ty to @brandon429, @N1tew0lf1212, @Dr. Reef (read his study on bottle bac, hard to argue true science), @MnFish1, and @Tamberav for working to assist.

 

[Cell]

Again with all due respect, you people have been doing this for years. Someone new needs to learn the basics, the fundamentals. That means cycling a tank over time.

Could not disagree more with this.

 

[Cell]

Hopefully some of the anti-bottled bac folks who commented early followed this thread all the way through and understand even if they prefer a different cycling method, bottled bac is very well vetted by now and it works.

Immediately calling any issue a cycle/ammonia issue whenever bottled bac was used does the hobby and individual looking for sound advice a great disservice.

 

[Cell]

Doesn't sound like you take any advice very well. After reading your replies and finding out there's a whole other thread I would suggest getting out of the hobby if your just gonna ignore or insult anyone telling you how to do things the right way.....

You just picked the wrong team.

 

[olonmv]

Is it possible the fish was bullied to death? Looks exhausted.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Could not disagree more with this.

While there are numerous methods to start a tank, there is no relative shortcut to maturity, stability, diversity, buffering capacity and depth of the ecosystem contained therein. To argue differently is silly, be the ‘system’ safe for animals or not.

The sage advice here from several people has been to take things slowly and learn as you go. Reefing is not a race, and most that treat it as one end up leaving broke and frustrated.

OP - Everyone thinks their LFS guy/gal is an expert. They (LFS folks) are no different than the people here arguing.… only a small percentage are experts, the rest…

Sorting out the BS is hard... That reality reinforces the ‘take your time’ advice. You will learn as you go, often through trial and error.

 

[Cell]

While there are numerous methods to start a tank, there is no relative shortcut to maturity, stability, diversity, buffering capacity and depth of the ecosystem contained therein. To argue differently is silly, be the ‘system’ safe for animals or not.

The sage advice here from several people has been to take things slowly and learn as you go. Reefing is not a race, and most that treat it as one end up leaving broke and frustrated.

OP - Everyone thinks their LFS guy/gal is an expert. They (LFS folks) are no different than the people here arguing.… only a small percentage are experts, the rest…

Sorting out the BS is hard... That reality reinforces the ‘take your time’ advice. You will learn as you go, often through trial and error.

Not exactly sure why you direct quoted me here but you do not need to do a traditional 4 week cycle to properly learn fundamentals. It sounds nice though.

 

[olonmv]

Not exactly sure why you direct quoted me here but you do not need to do a traditional 4 week cycle to properly learn fundamentals. It sounds nice though.

I can agree with this. I did the 4 week cycle and learned that there are better ways at starting a reef tank. I could have avoided lots of headaches had I started with live rock (from the ocean).

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Update:
I took a water sample and the fish (now deceased) to the LFS where I got him. This LFS is not a big chain and a local expert who gets a small shipment of fish in every week and specializes in pretty amazing coral. He sells out of his fish every week and there are zero reports of fish with velvet or ich on any reviews or the many local online groups that recommend him.

He tested the water parameters and Ammonia came back at 0, Nitrite at 0 and nitrate was around 7. He dipped the fish to see if parasites would fall out of his gills and none did. He stated no parasites or normal signs of velvet or ich appeared on its body. Something was wrong with the fish but the good news is it doesn't appear to be something that will affect the Clownfish still in the tank who is still looking awesome.

He will receive more Clownfish in this week and said he will replace the one I lost free of charge. He also offered to quarantine the new one for me if needed. I understand everyone's fear of a LFS saying whatever it takes to makes sales but this guy does not work that way and doesn't need to.

I will continue to monitor the parameters of the tank and monitor the remaining clown but I feel will better about the current state of the tank.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. Special ty to @brandon429, @N1tew0lf1212, @Dr. Reef (read his study on bottle bac, hard to argue true science), @MnFish1, and @Tamberav for working to assist.

Just to point out, if the store didn’t put a fresh gill sample under a microscope there is no way they could rule out velvet in this case. Even with a biopsy from a live fish it can be difficult to see under a scope.
Jay