230 gallon in-wall, room divider, reef build

[justingraham]

Two m1 returns for a 200g? That provides little benefit imo. You don't want river rapids in your sump and if your flow is more than your skinmer and reactors can handle what's the point? I have 600 gph return on my 300, couldn't imagine the need for more.

Btw I've done a drain like the original one you had drawn up. The earlier poster was right.. it's very poor for surface skimming and my surface looked like an oil wreck with dust and bubbles mixed in. Hurt par too... I hated it.

No I have it on a 90

I have both of them at 30% I'd say I'm around 900 gph haven't really tested it but that's what I was going for one pump shuts down I won't loose my tank. Plus it should add longevity to my pumps by only running them at 30% plus when I upgrade I only will have to replace the tank all my equipment is rated for a 300 gallon tank.

 

[pirate2876]

I like that you are thinking out of the box. One concern I would consider is the look of all the piping in your tank. I'm not a fan of looking at PVC(colored or white) in a reef. I know you can hide some of it in rockwork but, you are going to have quite a bit of pipe to hide. You are also going to have to avoid the "rock pile" look which, I think you are trying to avoid. Just my .02

 

[MarsRover]

Are you going to have the rocks sealed to the bottom of the tank and completely sealed on the sides?

I don't know how your design is going to work, but if you make it so the rocks provide surface skimming that you might be fine. Did you not like this type of overflow, usually you see people with these put rocks around to hide the overflow:

Yes!! This is my plan!

I intend to use mortar to "glue" all the rocks together and essentially create this impermeable wall that plastic boxes provide.

I didn't like the plastic boxes (like you showed) for a few reasons:
1. I don't like how much space it takes up. Having the pipeing only, I can make the smallest circumscribe for cylinder for the filtration as small as possible, thereby reducing the space taken by the box itself.
2. Covering the plastic box with rockwork is hard to do and make it look organic. The square corners and flat sides will be hard to hide and make look "natural". I considered cylindrical overflow but AGE would have had to custom make it and cost $$$$ so I designed this. I figured worst case I could get an 8" PVC pipe and cut and silicone it down to the PVC base of the tank myself if I can't get the rock work to look good with naked pipes.
3. Standard full height overflow boxes have the "dead water" trap (stagnation) in the bottom of them when you have the standpipe openings near the surface of the display tanks water (to keep it quiet). Hence why my rock "overflow box" doesn't have a cavity that extends to the bottom of the tank.

 

[MarsRover]

Do you guys think 1.5" PVC pipe is excessive??? it is really large and takes up tons of space.... Can i get away with 1" and not sacrifice good drainage??

thanks

 

[MarsRover]

Two m1 returns for a 200g? That provides little benefit imo. You don't want river rapids in your sump and if your flow is more than your skinmer and reactors can handle what's the point? I have 600 gph return on my 300, couldn't imagine the need for more.

Btw I've done a drain like the original one you had drawn up. The earlier poster was right.. it's very poor for surface skimming and my surface looked like an oil wreck with dust and bubbles mixed in. Hurt par too... I hated it.

when you say "the original one you had drawn up" you mean just naked standpipes?

What size pipeing do you have on your 300 gal for return pipe and drain pipes?

Right now i have sized at 1.5" PVC all the pipes but drawing it on the wall it's looking crazy big and taking up tons of space

 

[KJAG]

Yes!! This is my plan!

I intend to use mortar to "glue" all the rocks together and essentially create this impermeable wall that plastic boxes provide.

I didn't like the plastic boxes (like you showed) for a few reasons:
1. I don't like how much space it takes up. Having the pipeing only, I can make the smallest circumscribe for cylinder for the filtration as small as possible, thereby reducing the space taken by the box itself.
2. Covering the plastic box with rockwork is hard to do and make it look organic. The square corners and flat sides will be hard to hide and make look "natural". I considered cylindrical overflow but AGE would have had to custom make it and cost $$$$ so I designed this. I figured worst case I could get an 8" PVC pipe and cut and silicone it down to the PVC base of the tank myself if I can't get the rock work to look good with naked pipes.
3. Standard full height overflow boxes have the "dead water" trap (stagnation) in the bottom of them when you have the standpipe openings near the surface of the display tanks water (to keep it quiet). Hence why my rock "overflow box" doesn't have a cavity that extends to the bottom of the tank.

Can you elaborate further? Your rock is everything but an "overflow box" and is purely aesthetic/decorative, besides providing bacteria colonization (which every display with live rock allows). Your overflow and surface skimming capabilities, in your system,are solely dictated by the diameter of your open channel and full siphon. Downsizing to 1" pipe will only further inhibit this phenomenon.

 

[MarsRover]

Can you elaborate further? Your rock is everything but an "overflow box" and is purely aesthetic/decorative, besides providing bacteria colonization (which every display with live rock allows). Your overflow and surface skimming capabilities, in your system,are solely dictated by the diameter of your open channel and full siphon. Downsizing to 1" pipe will only further inhibit this phenomenon.

hrmmm.... normally i'd agree with you...except... what i'm going to do is completely fill in all crevices between the interior of my overflow and the outside, visible portion of the tower....so if i built a water impermeable (ignoring capillary action which happens in porous material such as rock) overflow box, which most certainly will allow water to flow over the top of it like a plastic box does, that it won't work the same as a plastic box?

There is such a thing as an optimized system sizing. Over which, you aren't serving any additional benefit. (i.e. a 30" pipe isn't a good idea for open channel/full siphon). I am curious if anyone has actually done the fluid dynamics calculations for this.

My question is this: is 1" pipe sufficient given a normal plastic "overflow" box?


On a similar note, the only thing better than CAD is printing CAD 1:1 and putting it in the location. Looking at the 1.5" PVC pipe, its MASSIVE..... luckily i can make some changes to the holes still in the drawings for manufacture......

1.5" PVC as presently drawn:

 

[KJAG]

hrmmm.... normally i'd agree with you...except... what i'm going to do is completely fill in all crevices between the interior of my overflow and the outside, visible portion of the tower....so if i built a water impermeable (ignoring capillary action which happens in porous material such as rock) overflow box, which most certainly will allow water to flow over the top of it like a plastic box does, that it won't work the same as a plastic box?

No. In all due respect, it quite simply will not, even closely, "work the same as a plastic box."
You are talking about using Live Rock for the structure hiding the pipe? Correct? And you endeavor to make said structure "water impermeable?" "Capillaries?" More like hundreds(thousands?) of gigantic arteries. The display water will simply flood in through all of the crevices in the rock= i.e: Zero surface skimming benefits reaped from that of a box.

There is such a thing as an optimized system sizing. Over which, you aren't serving any additional benefit. (i.e. a 30" pipe isn't a good idea for open channel/full siphon). I am curious if anyone has actually done the fluid dynamics calculations for this.

Bean's system( as stated on his website if you care to reference) can be scaled to any size, including 30" pipe. You can easily run your standpipes at one inch. Your flow capabilities will be hindered greatly for sure in a system of that size however and I personally would go no lower than 1.5" on a system of that size. Again, your "surface skimming" , without an overflow box, will be dictated by the diameter of your standpipes in this system. In what sounds like will be a 1" barely open " open channel" and a full siphon. Period.

Just depends on how much flow you want. Again in a system of the size you describe I wouldn't go any smaller than 1.5"

[/QUOTE]

 

[MarsRover]

No. In all due respect, it quite simply will not, even closely, "work the same as a plastic box."
You are talking about using Live Rock for the structure hiding the pipe? Correct? And you endeavor to make said structure "water impermeable?" "Capillaries?" More like hundreds(thousands?) of gigantic arteries. The display water will simply flood in through all of the crevices in the rock= i.e: Zero surface skimming benefits reaped from that of a box.

It's not just going to be only live rock though.... It'll be coated completely and partially filled from the bottom up, on the inside of the "box" with mortar...like a concrete tube so to speak. Overflow's only claim to fame is that water overflows the top of the box, thereby breaking surface tension and bringing the surface film with it. This system will certainly do that IF and ONLY IF i can seal the inside of the overflow tower from having free flow with the outside of the tank..... Think of like a circular dam, overflowing.

Bean's system( as stated on his website if you care to reference) can be scaled to any size, including 30" pipe. You can easily run your standpipes at one inch. Your flow capabilities will be hindered greatly for sure in a system of that size however and I personally would go no lower than 1.5" on a system of that size. Again, your "surface skimming" , without an overflow box, will be dictated by the diameter of your standpipes in this system. In what sounds like will be a 1" barely open " open channel" and a full siphon. Period.

I don't deny bean's system can be scaled. Never did, never have. Nor do i deny a syphon will work with 30" pipe. My point was that there is a limit, in a STANDARD overflow system (again, we are ignoring the specifics of my system) to which a larger diameter pipe will not longer provide any additional surface skimming benifit.


i.e. What is the diameter pipe required for which the rate of surface skimming exceeds the rate of generation of the junk you are skimming off the surface?

 

[2Wheelsonly]

when you say "the original one you had drawn up" you mean just naked standpipes?

What size pipeing do you have on your 300 gal for return pipe and drain pipes?

Right now i have sized at 1.5" PVC all the pipes but drawing it on the wall it's looking crazy big and taking up tons of space

3/4 inch return pipes and 1 inch drains. I'm not a fan of massive flow through the sump. My bulkheads are 1.5 but I stopped them down to 1 because my sump is a 36 inch and has 1 inch inlets. If there is one area of my system I'm not fond of it's my smaller sump. If my return jets are positioned too low and I have a power loss my siphon will put water in my fish room floor.

 

[justingraham]

I wouldn't go lower then 1.5 I think one inch pipe full syphon is 900 gph where 1.5 is 1500

For ur rock thing check out @prsnlty 180 build or maby she can chime in(sorry for always pimping out ur tank but it cause I like it prsnlty) I believe she did exactly what u are trying to do.

But I think she used the black cover and covered that in the rocks so I can't see it

Well just look at her tank and if u like it she will def steer u in the right direction.

I will say I'm glad u are asking all these questions before u just do takes a smart man to do all that

 

[jsker]

Just really digging the cad work

 

[prsnlty]

I wouldn't go lower then 1.5 I think one inch pipe full syphon is 900 gph where 1.5 is 1500

For ur rock thing check out @prsnlty 180 build or maby she can chime in(sorry for always pimping out ur tank but it cause I like it prsnlty) I believe she did exactly what u are trying to do.

But I think she used the black cover and covered that in the rocks so I can't see it

Well just look at her tank and if u like it she will def steer u in the right direction.

I will say I'm glad u are asking all these questions before u just do takes a smart man to do all that

@justingraham Although I'm flattered I am not quite sure he's trying to do the same thing I did [emoji4] I skimmed this page a bit but really need to go back and read it all I made my own towers out of 6" pc and rocked them. They are hollow inside except for drain pipe like all other overflow boxes.

 

[prsnlty]

hrmm... not much interest yet huh?

So moving on!

I've decided to go with NO over flow built in. I am just going to have them drill for bulkheads and i will likely put standpipes in and use rockwork/cement to build structure to/around the pipes to support the standpipes and prevent torquing out of plane on the bulkheads.

What i am going to show you below is just a single bulkhead cluster. I'm going to have two incase i decide i actually want to do two towers or w.e. the idea is to leave as much versatility in the build so i have options when it gets here.

heres some ideas:
straight Standpipes:

Same bulkhead locations but standpipes are jogged so the diameter in the center of the stack is smaller:

this is a bean animal design,
1) Emergency standpipe
2) Siphon standpipe
3) Open channel standpipe (air line not shown)

the controlling gate valves will be located UNDER the tank, above the sump.


thoughts? Will the emergency standpipe serve it's purpose even though the elbow is pitched open side down? or do i have to invert it so it is open side up? (see image below)

thanks folks

A couple of things to consider (I have experience with something similar). Any stress on these pipes, such as weight of rock and flow pushing them can cause you bulkheads to crack or worse the glass where the bulkheads are attached. In your images you will have bulkheads clustered together. This seriously weakens the glass, add sand, rock and weight of saltwater (also pressure) you will have a disaster waiting to happen. So let's say you want to fill it to create stability. You will still have a compromised bottom panel with a lot of weight on those bulkheads.... That said, I like your idea of the columns on the fifths. You can rock the putter shells and they will make excellent places to attach coral to. Only rock up to the teeth however. They won't be seen anyway.

 

[justingraham]

Thanks Jackie

 

[prsnlty]

Are you going to have the rocks sealed to the bottom of the tank and completely sealed on the sides?

I don't know how your design is going to work, but if you make it so the rocks provide surface skimming that you might be fine. Did you not like this type of overflow, usually you see people with these put rocks around to hide the overflow:

The overflow can be rocked with diy rock easily and not add bulk. As I did with my of's and return column.

 

[prsnlty]

I have 2 1" overflow standpipes with 6" pvc pipe as my overflow box column. This has a surface skimming area of 13" for each one = 26" of surface skimming total. This is more than enough surface skimming area. These columns are coated with diy rock and cured before install. I also have a free standing live diy rock column return. All this weight is away from the bulkheads. Here are some pics

 

[MarsRover]

3/4 inch return pipes and 1 inch drains. I'm not a fan of massive flow through the sump. My bulkheads are 1.5 but I stopped them down to 1 because my sump is a 36 inch and has 1 inch inlets. If there is one area of my system I'm not fond of it's my smaller sump. If my return jets are positioned too low and I have a power loss my siphon will put water in my fish room floor.

Awesome! Thank you for giving me a very straightforward and concise answer. Hard to come by sometimes!

I wouldn't go lower then 1.5 I think one inch pipe full syphon is 900 gph where 1.5 is 1500
For ur rock thing check out @prsnlty 180 build or maby she can chime in(sorry for always pimping out ur tank but it cause I like it prsnlty) I believe she did exactly what u are trying to do.
But I think she used the black cover and covered that in the rocks so I can't see it
Well just look at her tank and if u like it she will def steer u in the right direction.
I will say I'm glad u are asking all these questions before u just do takes a smart man to do all that

Just really digging the cad work

Haha thank you both @justingraham and @jsker! I am an engineer working on Mars rovers and i have a lot of CAD experience. Sadly, i am rather embarassed by this halfa**ed CAD i've displayed here but i'm glad you all like it! I find it really hard, and you have obviously seen it in this thread, to get technical concepts across 100% without clear diagrams.

That said, I still needed more so i printed some 1:1 and modified my design tonight. I think i'm ready to lock it in with the company! See images below!

A couple of things to consider (I have experience with something similar). Any stress on these pipes, such as weight of rock and flow pushing them can cause you bulkheads to crack or worse the glass where the bulkheads are attached. In your images you will have bulkheads clustered together. This seriously weakens the glass, add sand, rock and weight of saltwater (also pressure) you will have a disaster waiting to happen. So let's say you want to fill it to create stability. You will still have a compromised bottom panel with a lot of weight on those bulkheads.... That said, I like your idea of the columns on the fifths. You can rock the putter shells and they will make excellent places to attach coral to. Only rock up to the teeth however. They won't be seen anyway.

Stress on the bulkheads were a major consideration in my designing. While yes, it isn't shown here, i worked over a few ideas and i think i am prepared for them to deliver the tank, standpipe-less and i will build the rest on my own.

I would have the same concerns as you regarding bulkhead cluster and glass, however, this tank is being built by A.G.E. and it is their style to go with 1" PVC bottom! Now, the strength is still a concern when considering torquing the bulkheads on 30" long pipes but i will be sure to secure the base of them well. I'm considering not just doing rock but also maybe taking a 12" tall, large diameter PVC pipe that will go around the PVC standpipe bottom section, then fill with mortar to stabilize the whole thing and keep them from stressing the bulkheads.

@prsnlty I love what you did with your tank! Please tell me more about what DIY rock is? What exact products did you use? (please link me?) Your tank is stunning and i hope mine looks half as good as yours.

One deviation from your style it sounds like i want to make is to fill the bottom, at least half, of the rock-overflow-box with a solid of some sort such as mortar. The water doesn't need to fall all the way down there anyway (bean animal benifit) and so i don't want stagnant water down there so i'm going to reduce the depth of the box.






I've decided to lock in my design as 1" pipes. 3 drain and one, likely to be, return. I say likely because if my 3x1" drains aren't enough drainage, i can adopt the 4th as a drain and route my return line up around the side of the tank through one of the structural columns i'm going to build to hold up the ceiling.


Tonight, i decided my CAD wasn't enough and i printed 1:1 drawings of my tank's standpipes. I realized the 1.5" pipes are entirely too massive for my liking. I too agree @justingraham that 1" full siphon is around 600 to 900gph. From what i've been reading, i think this is roughly what i'm looking for. It should be adjustable to some degree with the open channel. And again, if all else fails and i need more flow/drainage, i can convert back in the 1" center "return" pipe as another 600-900gph drain and route my return up over the top.

the 1.5" pipes were insane looking, too large and came too close to the walls for my comfort. Also, the stress concerns....:

Thanks folks for getting engaged! I hope people are starting to get at least a little bit as excited as i am.

This weekend i'm hoping to get to demo'ing the wall and seeing whats underneath. Then CAD it up and start CAD building!

Stay tuned!

 

[nc208082]

Your CAD skills are very impressive, if your using 3 drains in your overflow then 1" you will be fine IMO. 1.5 would take up too much room and unnecessary.

In terms of the surface skimming that several have brought up that can be fixed by providing extra powerheads pointed towards the surface or a gyre style pump.

Your idea for the overflow is quite neat and am looking forward to how it turns out. My advice to save you a ton of work is use an overflow box and completely cover it with rock. Will be so much easier than creating a overflow that is watertight from rocks.

As per many of your questions are you asking the tank builder their thoughts and recommendations on this?

 

[MarsRover]

Your CAD skills are very impressive, if your using 3 drains in your overflow then 1" you will be fine IMO. 1.5 would take up too much room and unnecessary.

In terms of the surface skimming that several have brought up that can be fixed by providing extra powerheads pointed towards the surface or a gyre style pump.

Your idea for the overflow is quite neat and am looking forward to how it turns out. My advice to save you a ton of work is use an overflow box and completely cover it with rock. Will be so much easier than creating a overflow that is watertight from rocks.

As per many of your questions are you asking the tank builder their thoughts and recommendations on this?

I have been asking the tank builder. Or rather, i have been interfacing with one of their sales reps who seems very knowledgable. He is a reefer himself, actually, he built their website and they kept him on as a side job for him as a sales rep. He works for Boeing and seems like a pretty knowledgeable guy.

A lot of these things i think are open to many options within the confines of physics.

I was thinking the same thing about surface skimming. I figured, worst case, i could find a way to perturb the surface but i think my overflow will work.

I may take advise of many of you and start with a tube of some sort. We will see when we get there and as i sleep on it!