6500k T5 Bulbs - Important Spectrums Missing in LEDs?

[madweazl]

Keep in mind that even if the dim signal is 0-10V dc doesn't necessarily mean the output is not PWM dimmed.....

Only Kessil knows for sure..and they aren't exactly forthcoming...

The Kessil A360WEs are analog 0-10vdc; I had to change the jumper in the Reef Angel's relay box to accommodate this.

 

[jda]

I am happy that more people than me see the value in 700+nm spectrum. Be careful or you might also get labeled a moron for touting some invisible and unmeasurable spectrum... even though it is invisible, but you can measure it with a good tool. What about UV? Is this spectrum that you discount, or do you want to run it and finding reasonably priced diodes that last a real problem? I appreciate your work an opinions over real tanks and value your input more than nearly any chart or study that is out there.

I am no scientist, but I have a lot of years and a lot of tanks and every light source that has UV and IR grows and colors better than those without. Now, there could be a myriad of reasons why (as discussed), when 100% of anything ends up winning regardless of the other reasons/excuses, then there is more than just causality and coincidence here and well along the way of the trend.

I got told at 2013 or 2014 MACNA by the largest LED vendor here in the US that they did not ever want to invest in spectrum that could not "pop" a PAR meter since it would cost them sales to the competitors. I have always wondered if they knew of how valuable spectrum below 400 and over 700 was, but just did not care as long as they sold lights. I do appreciate Orphek for thinking outside the 400-700nm box... as well as other hobbyists.

 

[Lasse]

The lights I used were SB Reef, Kessil, and Radion. I don't know the specifics of the wavelengths off the top of my head but I can tell you the settings I used in hopes that might help find the answer? SB Reef was 100% on blue and white channel. Radion I ran the AB+ profile at 100% intensity. Kessil I ran on the 2nd bluest color on the color wheel also at 100% intensity.

Thanks

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

When I back in 2008 argue for adding NO3 in certain situations - moron was the nicest word I got When I started to argue about adding PO4 too .. ........

If where is no morons - no development.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[oreo54]

Be careful or you might also get labeled a moron for touting some invisible and unmeasurable spectrum... even though it is invisible, but you can measure it with a good tool. What about UV?

Point always has been you can add any spectrum to LED's you want.

It's manuf and understanding that is lacking.. not LED's..

Seems a hard point for some to understand..

if they knew of how valuable spectrum below 400 and over 700 was,

You can argue the MEANING or DEGREES of success all you want but the fact is things have been grown and flourish w/out them..YMMV

 

[oreo54]

The Kessil A360WEs are analog 0-10vdc; I had to change the jumper in the Reef Angel's relay box to accommodate this.

That's still an "input" not "output"...2 separate things.
Only way to know for sure is w/ an Oscilloscope on the output or the manuf statement.
Phillips Coralcare states they do analog dimming using current throttling..
AFAICT the only manuf that states method of dimming on the output..
sort of an idea..
Think of an ADC (analog to digital converter) you can take an analog input (voltage, current) and convert it to a digital on/off 0/1 output.
doing digital to digital is inherently easier .. and in this case more effective.
0-10V dimming has always been a "mistake of industry"..

 

[McMullen]

I've been running LEDs for years, DIY, Ocean Revive (They failed within in year), and now "black box." With all the conversation about hybrid systems and feeling that my SPS were just missing something, I built a light rack and added an Odyssea T5 4bulb. On a 4ft tank, I now have Horizontally (end to end) three black box LEDs butted up against the T5. I bought the 'Freshwater' addition Odyssea because it comes with 4 65K bulbs. To my surprise the color blends well with the LEDS (always run them at 100%). To my delight, in just one week I visually see coral growth (no I didn't measure, just have to take my word). So for my reef, the addition of 65K bulbs absolutely made a difference. And yes, once the bulbs need replacing or perhaps sooner, I will replace with other spectrums to bring out the best coloration in my SPS as possible.

 

[oreo54]

I've been running LEDs for years, DIY, Ocean Revive (They failed within in year), and now "black box." With all the conversation about hybrid systems and feeling that my SPS were just missing something, I built a light rack and added an Odyssea T5 4bulb. On a 4ft tank, I now have Horizontally (end to end) three black box LEDs butted up against the T5. I bought the 'Freshwater' addition Odyssea because it comes with 4 65K bulbs. To my surprise the color blends well with the LEDS (always run them at 100%). To my delight, in just one week I visually see coral growth (no I didn't measure, just have to take my word). So for my reef, the addition of 65K bulbs absolutely made a difference. And yes, once the bulbs need replacing or perhaps sooner, I will replace with other spectrums to bring out the best coloration in my SPS as possible.

Again, you added over 200W of light i.e 20,000 Lumens.. and you get better growth..
Unless you dimmed the black boxes by 20,000 lumens or 200W you added photons..

Again no surprise. looks are still subjective but not going to argue that point for THAT reason..or color shifts in corals w/ either them adding pigments or the light now "expressing" them better..

 

[shred5]

Again, you added over 200W of light i.e 20,000 Lumens.. and you get better growth..
Unless you dimmed the black boxes by 20,000 lumens or 200W you added photons..

Again no surprise. looks are still subjective but not going to argue that point for THAT reason..or color shifts in corals w/ either them adding pigments or the light now "expressing" them better..

More light does not always = more growth..
It can mean more photosynthesis which can mean more food but the coral may expel the zooxanthalla to to balance this out.
Also I do think we are reaching photoinhibition with some corals.
Not only that most do not run leds at peak because it is too much light for some fixtures, so I don't think it is always the case either.
I mean you have a point but it is not always the case.

But I do not think there is as much difference between led and halides in growth for corals but there is in color.

Also adding Odyssea bulb probably did little because they are not good.

 

[oreo54]

Devil is always in the details..
Yea blanket statements are prone to errors BUT it at least gets people to think about it..

 

[McMullen]

Also adding Odyssea bulb probably did little because they are not good.

And yet, noticeable results.....

Again no surprise. looks are still subjective but not going to argue that point for THAT reason..or color shifts in corals w/ either them adding pigments or the light now "expressing" them better..

Actually, I was surprised. I simply wanted the T5 to decrease shading. The growth was unexpected. We can all remain skeptical about the 'reason' as describing and understanding light is vastly complicated. And honestly, none of the why matters. What matters is obtaining results and with my crappy black box LEDS and 'not good' Odyssea T5 lamps I am doing just that. To further clarify, my coral grew fine and had good color with just LED, but my anecdotal experience already with adding T5 is undeniable.........in my reef.

 

[Sallstrom]

I am happy that more people than me see the value in 700+nm spectrum. Be careful or you might also get labeled a moron for touting some invisible and unmeasurable spectrum... even though it is invisible, but you can measure it with a good tool. What about UV? Is this spectrum that you discount, or do you want to run it and finding reasonably priced diodes that last a real problem? I appreciate your work an opinions over real tanks and value your input more than nearly any chart or study that is out there.

I am no scientist, but I have a lot of years and a lot of tanks and every light source that has UV and IR grows and colors better than those without. Now, there could be a myriad of reasons why (as discussed), when 100% of anything ends up winning regardless of the other reasons/excuses, then there is more than just causality and coincidence here and well along the way of the trend.

I got told at 2013 or 2014 MACNA by the largest LED vendor here in the US that they did not ever want to invest in spectrum that could not "pop" a PAR meter since it would cost them sales to the competitors. I have always wondered if they knew of how valuable spectrum below 400 and over 700 was, but just did not care as long as they sold lights. I do appreciate Orphek for thinking outside the 400-700nm box... as well as other hobbyists.

I know about far red, or 700 - 750nm, and that it used in greenhouse LEDs for a reason. But do you think those wavelengths above 800nm are important as well? Or are they just a waste of energy?

 

[oreo54]

Actually, I was surprised. I simply wanted the T5 to decrease shading. The growth was unexpected. We can all remain skeptical about the 'reason' as describing and understanding light is vastly complicated. And honestly, none of the why matters. What matters is obtaining results and with my crappy black box LEDS and 'not good' Odyssea T5 lamps I am doing just that. To further clarify, my coral grew fine and had good color with just LED, but my anecdotal experience already with adding T5 is undeniable.........in my reef.

Am I missing something??.. did you or did you not increase your light output?

Lets just say, for the sake of argument, you added 4 Orphek light bars w/ 120 degree lenses and put the black boxes in between but spread the bars a bit to the outside.
It is "possible" you would see the same results w/ albeit, a bit more shading w/ the 120 degree lenses..

POINT is you added more light...regardless if it is LED or tubes or candles for that matter...

not trying to undermine your statements, just trying for clarity ..

you're right, light is complicated..and I'm not trying to distract from any t5/LED (MH) hybrid approach.. It's a good one really..but you can't exactly discount the fact that, like for many, you just added photons ..

 

[oreo54]

I know about far red, or 700 - 750nm, and that it used in greenhouse LEDs for a reason. But do you think those wavelengths above 800nm are important as well? Or are they just a waste of energy?

well, here is the trick, sort of..
Terrestrial plants respond to red by saying "shaded"
Aquatics respond to red by saying "bright", not shade..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4826019/

In land plants, phytochromes sense red and far-red light and participate in regulation of germination, photomorphogenesis, and circadian rhythms. For aquatic plants, the light spectrum changes with depth, as water attenuates red and far-red wavelengths at increasing depth (Ragni and Ribera d’Alcala, 2004). Nevertheless, many aquatic organisms, including different lineages of algae, have phytochromes, although the functions of these phytochromes remain unclear........
One question about the function of DPH is whether it senses far-red light from sunlight as part of photoperiodic responses or to help the diatoms detect when they are near the surface.

but that's diatoms..

http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/2/10/150358


Systems sort of work in the exact opposite..so heavy red should stimulate full sun responses in aquatics.. just the opposite in terrestrials..

Area isn't well worked out.. as to >720nm... ??????? and water absorbs >700 rapidly at depth..as was shown earlier..
I'll await more data.....

 

[McMullen]

Am I missing something??.. did you or did you not increase your light output?

Lets just say, for the sake of argument, you added 4 Orphek light bars w/ 120 degree lenses and put the black boxes in between but spread the bars a bit to the outside.
It is "possible" you would see the same results w/ albeit, a bit more shading w/ the 120 degree lenses..

POINT is you added more light...regardless if it is LED or tubes or candles for that matter...

not trying to undermine your statements, just trying for clarity ..

you're right, light is complicated..and I'm not trying to distract from any t5/LED (MH) hybrid approach.. It's a good one really..but you can't exactly discount the fact that, like for many, you just added photons ..

I don’t think we’re disagreeing. Yes more light (call it by whatever technical name you wish) was added. Because I saw an increase in growth rapidly, it’s likely (plausible) I would have seen the same results by adding light bars, more black boxes, MH, plasma, solar tubes, or CFs (given enough added). I draw the line at including actual candles. There does exist diminishing returns and photo inhibition. I honestly expected I was already at the inhibition stage because I run my LEDs at 100%. It’s convenient for us to neatly pack everything into categories and boxes and this is important for academia and research. However, most people here just want results. The OP asked an interesting question. Perhaps my N of 1 means nothing? Or perhaps it suggests utility of 6500K bulbs? I’m not suggesting I have the answer.

 

[oreo54]

Those black boxes run at more like 2W per diode.. so there is that as to "intensity"..
sadly one can only use manuf. used "lumens" but that watt efficiency is probably around 50-70L/W. Good diodes and T5's/MH are 100L/watt or close..
A "300W" Mars Aqua is more like a 157W light..and closer in reality to a 100W t5 w/ good ballasts and reflectors.
Spread (or more correctly lack of spread) is in favor of the LED making it "like" 150-175W's of "tubes..

Point is how much light you think you are giving is not always very close..

But there is this: really focused lights:

To be honest you proved the utility of more light..
Really doesn't quite say anything about 6500K though it doesn't say anything against it either..

To get back o/t sort of.. or a summary:
White 6500k LED's have a pronounced different spectrum than 6500K T5's or MH..but it's more a manufacturers choice. .
They can be a lot closer as in high CRI whites > 5000K
This improvement can be done on diode or w/ ancillary LED's of specific colors (mostly reds,cyans, reg. blue)
what those differences mean is ????



Historically it's a lot like "old" compact florescents w/ their ugly green tint vs more "modern" ones w/ changed phosphors yet.. same K temp..

 

[Rakie]

I've upped my lighting a hair, instead of running the AB+ program at 18.5k spectrum, I'm running 16k spectrum, I've adjusted the acclimation to be nearly exactly as it was wattage wise, so nothing should get shocked.

The warm white diode really makes red shine. So far only seeing it for a few hours -- I love it.

 

[hart24601]

I asked kessil specifically about the output. Figured why speculate if they will reply! Here is the response and keep in mind the a360x does have 0-10v input controls.

Hello Bret,

Thanks for your email.

Kessil does not use PWM for the A360/A160/A80. It is only a 0-10V. However, the new A360X that we recently announced uses pwm and will allow for ultra dimming to create the moonlight effect. Otherwise, our A360 does not have the moonlight effect.

Best,
Lai

 

[oreo54]

I asked kessil specifically about the output. Figured why speculate if they will reply! Here is the response and keep in mind the a360x does have 0-10v input controls.

Hello Bret,

Thanks for your email.

Kessil does not use PWM for the A360/A160/A80. It is only a 0-10V. However, the new A360X that we recently announced uses pwm and will allow for ultra dimming to create the moonlight effect. Otherwise, our A360 does not have the moonlight effect.

Best,
Lai

mfmfmfnpfmdnfmnf... still conflating 2 different things..

but better than nothing.. maybe..

New light is said to dim down to 1%.................

so which is it on the output ? Current changing or PWM???

LEDs, as well as conventional sources, can also be dimmed through constant current reduction (CCR), or analog dimming. CCR maintains a continuous current to the source, but it reduces its amplitude to achieve dimming. “The light output is proportional to the amount of current flowing through the device,” Narendran says.

Both PWM and CCR strategies have their advantages and drawbacks. The more widely used PWM offers a broad dimming range, can decrease light output to values of “less than 1 percent,” Narendran says, and avoids color shift by operating the LED at its rated current level—or its maximum light output—and at zero current. However, because PWM dimming involves rapid switching, it requires sophisticated and expensive drive electronics to produce the current pulses at a frequency high enough to prevent perceptible flicker.

https://www.archlighting.com/technology/leds-a-deep-dive-in-dimming_o

 

[hart24601]

mfmfmfnpfmdnfmnf... still conflating 2 different things..

but better than nothing.. maybe..

New light is said to dim down to 1%.................

We are not talking about the output? That is what I specifically asked about in my email to them. Plus the new light is 0-10v input (The photos and linking show 0-10v) but pwm output so it can dim to moonlight where the others can't because the output is not pwm?

I don't care at all personally, just wanted to ask them if anyone was ever curious that reads the thread.

It sounds like the new light is what you have been describing with 0-10v in, pwm out and the older ones are analog in and out which is why they don't dim lower than 10% or so.