6500k T5 Bulbs - Important Spectrums Missing in LEDs?

[ksfulk]

I was (well, still am) under the impression that the reason LEDs were always minimizing the green and red spectrum was in an effort to reduce the "algae favorable" light available. When I ran "black box" LED fixtures several years ago, I didnt know any better and I ran my fixture directly on top of the tank at 80-100% blues and similar with the whites - and I had acros growing out of the water. I run T5s now, and I swear by the Giessemann Tropic bulb - I wasnt even aware that GE made a similar one!

 

[Phelipe's Ocean]

I couldn't agree more. I keep wondering, lately, if we are going backwards in some arenas.

I remember explosive growth in the few SPS we had available to us in the early 90s running 4300K metal halide bulbs with a bunch of NO A03 fluorescent bulbs to try and bring in some more color other than pee.

So, if we could run these bulbs today along with the massive amounts of blue we have available, if we didn't bleach the corals, I would imagine growth would be unprecedented.

Thoughts?

I still say the prettiest coloration of fish I ever saw was under tritons, blue moons and GE aquarays mixed 1:2:1

WOAH 4300k? I did not even know that was thing. That would be a very fun project to try out.

 

[Phelipe's Ocean]

If you all want to see real spectrum charts for MH bulbs, you can go to reefs.com/lighting. These are not smoothed over like LED manufacturer charts, but are pretty raw with some spikes and rough spots.

I think that everybody knows that I think that LED is missing "something," but I also think that it has too much of "something." Other than just spectrum, 6500k source will have SIGNIFICANTLY more PAR/output than most of today's lighting, yet corals thrive. I have a theory that coral can take all kinds of light as long as they are not overwhelmed in one particular area - think sunlight with it's massive output, yet spread out. Attached below is a chart comparing the 250w Iwasaki 6500K to the the famous HQI (330w) 20k Radium. The 131 PPFD of the Iwasaki is 54% more output than the Radium (with less wattage) yet corals thrive. If anybody turned their Radions, Hydras, RB V2, etc. up 54%, stuff would fry. I think that the problem with diodes is that they put too too many peaks in just a few areas and they burn coral - we all know that there are some white diodes that MUST be kept low or else corals will die.

If LED did not have too much of "something" then why will going from 350 to 500 PAR burn the tops of acropora under LED, but if you did the same thing with T5 or MH (any temp of bulb), they just thrive more.



I will admit that I run 14k MH bulbs so that I do not have to supplement with any tubes. I make this compromise. Fortunately, the 14k Phoenix and 20k Radium (really more like a 14k than a 20k) also get good growth. I absolutely would have better growth with Hamilton or XM 10k.

Do not forget that lights both have to render color in coral, but also illuminate them. The best color rendering happens under daylight. The best illumination (for today's standards) is in the bluer range. This is why corals that have a good amount of 6500k when getting their color look great when placed under bluer lighting - just ask anybody who has gotten stuff from Adam... however, that color can fade when the 6500k source is no longer provided.

Exactly!! Im not sure where the idea that more blue = more color. If you were to put 2 walt disney frags under actnics. One grown under 6500k and one grown under 14-20k the one under 6500k would have much better coloration and pop. Not to mention you lose certan colors when running a very blue tank.

 

[tnyr5]

If Sanjay were here, he would say "No s#!t, Sherlock!" lol

 

[madweazl]

FWIW - if you were to match wattage between the Iwasaki 6500k and Radium 20k with the m80/HQI ballast, the output is well more than double at 122% increase. How come this would make coral thrive, yet LEDs burn coral with way less output? The answer is not that "they are more powerful" or "lenses," but I do not know what it is really.

If the spectrum was matched with LEDs (best as possible), would you expect the results to be different? PAR levels of the 6500k could be expected to be better given the amount of spectrum with the range a typical PAR meter interprets best. I would suspect corals under similar conditions (with LEDs) to react the same way (just a guess).

 

[jda]

If the spectrum was matched with LEDs (best as possible), would you expect the results to be different? PAR levels of the 6500k could be expected to be better given the amount of spectrum with the range a typical PAR meter interprets best. I would suspect corals under similar conditions (with LEDs) to react the same way (just a guess).

I am not a believer in any efficiencies knowing how a quantum works. I do think that a similar spectrum set of diodes would be about the same PPFD when measured the same way. Both would have ballast and/or power supply and driver losses, but input wattage vs output wattage would be the same.

All of that being said, I think that the set of diodes supposed above would fry corals unless they are up really high or set up to spread over a large area. You could cover a 18x18 or 24x24 inch area with that 6500k MH and nothing would get fried. I am assuming that you acclimate both of them.

...so, I do not expect the output results to be different, but I would expect the practical application to be very much different.

EDIT: I would also expect a hobby-grade PAR meter to not capture the two light sources the same, or very well... the value in the MH would be from 350 to 800nm, but the par meter will do about 420 to 680 really well and under sample, or not sample, the rest. If you put IR or UV into the LEDs, it would get left out as well. In the tests that Dr. Joshi did for his lighting guide, he was not using a commercial spectrometer which is infinitely better than a PAR meter. I have a nice Apogee MQ-510. I like it. I also understand that it is nothing more than a rough tool.

 

[teller]

I have a feeling that the scattering of the LED light point sources is the most important. Some companies already come up with plastic diffuser filters to achieve this. The likes of Ecotech Radions, Phillips, Maxspect Recurve which has two led bars behind a plastic diffuser filter, and some DYIs.
I have a feeling that this scattering of LED lights helps against the "frying" thing.
My opinion, maybe @Dana Riddle one day can make some tests on LEDs with and without scattering/diffusion medias related to coral behavior, especially the broad white ones.
Hope I didn't disperse from OP.

 

[Dana Riddle]

I have a feeling that the scattering of the LED light point sources is the most important. Some companies already come up with plastic diffuser filters to achieve this. The likes of Ecotech Radions, Phillips, Maxspect Recurve which has two led bars behind a plastic diffuser filter, and some DYIs.
I have a feeling that this scattering of LED lights helps against the "frying" thing.
My opinion, maybe @Dana Riddle one day can make some tests on LEDs with and without scattering/diffusion medias related to coral behavior, especially the broad white ones.
Hope I didn't disperse from OP.

Another possible project - if I have enough years left.

 

[Straight.Reefin]

Is this saying to bump up cool whites and warm whites??

And is this also saying to bump up red and greens also?? Or just the whites?

Just curious because I run gen 4 pros and Ive been running higher spectrum at 14k and getting good results with my acros now

 

[jda]

I would look towards the examples set with other people running Radion Gen 4s over acropora. There are several that have tanks that are about as good as it gets with all channels at 100%, but they have the fixtures way up high. People who cannot raise them up high do not have as good of success and need to be more blue-based. I trust actual experience over theory and half-science (which is what a lot of this is), but others disagree.

I think that what most of this thread is getting at is the gap between even the best LEDs and other light sources. Dr. Joshi runs his Radions at 100% and has a good tank, but it is about 80% of what it once was and could be (he will even tell you this) when he had his Radiums, but he is Ok with that. I think that what people are getting at is to figure out the difference what it might be.

 

[Straight.Reefin]

I gotcha and that makes sense for sure


I guess one of my questions is so we think LEDS should be using higher whites ?? Higher reds and greens?? Or all of the above?

 

[A. grandis]

I get confused with threads like this because it never goes to a solid end, scientifically speaking, with a final explanation.
It does get interesting to read and I actually learn some, but it's mostly in the air! Kinda frustrating somehow!
But this kinda stuff is what digs in each of us and makes learn more and it's probably what has the higher values in threads!
I also see things as they are and try to apply science, specially from nice aquarium articles, to the results we actually see happening in our glass boxes. That way I try to understand and explain what's going on with what I'm living with.
The full spectrum is the deal, we all know. The LED problem with burning is what it is: lack of proper distribution of intensity due to LEDs' nature. IMHO the spectrum curves of LEDs are very far from halides and T5s.
Charts can't reproduce what really happens because companies can only publish what their instruments read. If our eyes read the blue LEDs different than blue T5s and blue halides is because they are different. Guess what? Corals will agree with that as well.

One of the most frustrating things to me is not having Dr. Sanjay Joshi publishing what he sees and tells to some of us or at MACNA.
Would be great to have a MACNA video with those observations!!!!
After talking to him how simple is to avoid the chiller/Apex problems he had, I've also told him many times to think about going back to his halides because that excuse isn't enough for such change. I'm not telling him again! Let's give him some more time...

 

[A. grandis]

I gotcha and that makes sense for sure


I guess one of my questions is so we think LEDS should be using higher whites ?? Higher reds and greens?? Or all of the above?

The nature of LEDs won't change. We just have to respect it's limits.

 

[Dana Riddle]

I am not a believer in any efficiencies knowing how a quantum works. I do think that a similar spectrum set of diodes would be about the same PPFD when measured the same way. Both would have ballast and/or power supply and driver losses, but input wattage vs output wattage would be the same.

All of that being said, I think that the set of diodes supposed above would fry corals unless they are up really high or set up to spread over a large area. You could cover a 18x18 or 24x24 inch area with that 6500k MH and nothing would get fried. I am assuming that you acclimate both of them.

...so, I do not expect the output results to be different, but I would expect the practical application to be very much different.

EDIT: I would also expect a hobby-grade PAR meter to not capture the two light sources the same, or very well... the value in the MH would be from 350 to 800nm, but the par meter will do about 420 to 680 really well and under sample, or not sample, the rest. If you put IR or UV into the LEDs, it would get left out as well. In the tests that Dr. Joshi did for his lighting guide, he was not using a commercial spectrometer which is infinitely better than a PAR meter. I have a nice Apogee MQ-510. I like it. I also understand that it is nothing more than a rough tool.

Can you provide comparisons of the Li-Cor and Apogee 'full spectrum' sensors?

 

[Dana Riddle]

Skepticism is healthy, as long as it is backed up with repeatable evidence to the contrary.

 

[jda]

reefs.com/lighting instrument

The spectroradiometer we used is the LiCOR LI-1800/12 portable spectroradiometer (Licor) with a standard cosine receptor. It is capable of measurement from 300 nm to 850 nm at 2 nm intervals.

vs

Best Apogee Sensor

389 to 692 nm ± 5 nm (wavelengths where response is greater than 50 % of maximum)

Most Apogee Sensors in Reef Club and Hobbyist Posession

410 to 655 nm (wavelengths where response is greater than 50 %)

 

[a-mused]

I would highly recommend viewing Tullio's MACNA 2017 presentation on the nature of light. This is purely a scientific presentation and not an advertisement for any brand or type of light. However, it does underline the basics of the physics of light as it relates to our reef aquariums. Tullio is one of the most respected people in the field of LEDs and lighting in general, consulted by major public aquariums and light manufacturers. So rather than go forward based on anecdotes and personal experience, let science lay our foundation for the understanding of how light functions and how we can best utilize various types of lights to the benefit of the needs of our corals.

 

[Rakie]

The nature of LEDs won't change. We just have to respect it's limits.

There was a time people thought it was impossible for T5's to sustain life -- Until we improved the technology. That's why T5VHO was a thing. Nothing has a limit, just a problem that needs solving.

 

[A. grandis]

There was a time people thought it was impossible for T5's to sustain life -- Until we improved the technology. That's why T5VHO was a thing. Nothing has a limit, just a problem that needs solving.

The nature of T5s didn't change. The spectrum and sizes were, and probably will be, improved. Reflectors and efficiency by cooling were also important improvements. Ballasts are getting better and better. Dimming could be considered as one of the latest good news.
Guess what? The nature of T5s remains the same. That can't be changed and that's what I'm talking about.

 

[SDchris]

• With LED's, should we be adding in a little more Yellow/Red/Green/Orange spectrums?

• Do you think Yellow/Red/Green/Orange spectrums are LESS important with LED's?

I started with the standard royal blue / white mix (cree 3w). Over time the light was rebuilt several times adjusting the colour mix. Finally ending with a ratio off:
- 5 x 420nm purple/uv
- 2 x 450nm royal blue
- 1 x 480nm blue
- 2 warm white @ 30 - 100% depending on time of day
- 1 x green @ 15%
- 1 x red 660nm @ 15%

For what I wanted visually! It was more 420nm.

The advantage with LED's is you can easily spot light some corals to bring those colours into the mix. A warm white LED spot light, targeting a birdsnest to make it glow pink. Or colour shifting a green stag to yellow.