6500k T5 Bulbs - Important Spectrums Missing in LEDs?

[oreo54]

OK to add a bit of "specifics" to the 6500k LED thing..
First using high K (>6500k) LED's was a mistake to begin with which is being partially rectified by the addition of other "colors" or or low K whites..
the blue/cyan gap seems to be problematic for some things along w/ almost a complete lack of red..

to get to a more specific instance of a arguably better (well few should really argue it) 6500K LED which is a much more balanced spectrum..
This is a chart of the Luxeon "fresh fish" COB (fitting huh) showing the filling of many of the "gaps" in "normal" and honestly sub-standard 6500K LEDs..
>95CRI...
so yes, 6500k LEd manuf. chose a bad phosphor pack.. and this choice has made it difficult on LED's.
Much like early compact florescent (or early t12,8,5) they repeated the same mistake.
Thankfully this is "finally" getting recognized as an issue..
Next issue is the use of "royal blue " as a pump. Better to use the Sorra approach (and others) of a violet base emitter.
Issues:
currently less efficient than RB base emitters and stability of the blue phosphor is still (?) an issue.. BUT they are now very close to being a t5,8 emulation w/ RGB phosphors minus the Mercury spikes and less extreme RGB spectral spikes..
all of which, can easily be added if desired.. Well easily is a bit relative..

Yes LED's are different but its not an insurmountable problem..
Sometimes its steps forward ..steps backward...but more forward..

 

[OMGitsManBearPig]

So all I need to do is slightly modify my LED's wavelengths to get more marbled red meat?! I'm going start acclimating my cowfish immediately.

(Sorry... )
;Troll;Troll;Troll

In all seriousness - what am I looking at, here? Is this just what Luxeon nicknames their LED spectrums as?

 

[oreo54]

Luxeon made "retail" specific line of COB's to accentuate certain food "looks"..
Just so happens they did a 6500k COB w/ high CRI to highlight fish "freshness"...
They also make a hort. specific chip.. the sunplus line w/ a similar and possibly identical phosphor pack as the fresh fish.
Catch to those is they are "lensed" at like 135 degrees...

See point is not all 6500k is equal.. even in say T5's comparing the spectrum of 6500k GE starcoats to Geisemann midday 6000k (500k isn't much)
So when wants to talk about what is missing one needs to talk about specific "bulbs"..

http://www.omnima.co.uk/store/catalog/Iwasaki-Arc-PAR36-Metal-Halide-Lamp-p-16134.html

to throw in a personal rant.. biggest problem is using crappy low CRI CREE diodes..

Built for power at the cost of quality of light..

 

[dantimdad]

I know this may sound simplistic and naïve but, why has no manufacturer gone on reefs at specific times of the day and measured the CCT, CRI, PAR, PUR, etc. at the surface, down every 12 inches to say 30 feet?

This would put to rest the questions about spectrum, power, etc.

Am I just missing something here?

Think of the marketing for Red Sea specific lights or Tonga or Hawaii. You get the point.

They could spend a hundred grand on this make their money back 100 fold if they did it right and honestly.

 

[oreo54]

To give a simplistic answer..it's already possible to figure most of it out but since it's VERY dynamic (currents, clouds, silt, seasons, ect..) and most lighting in comparison relatively static its sort of pointless..
Not to mention the fact that corals will respond differently than native ones due to where they were raised .
Then one may not "like' that light..

It would be like building a Coral biotope.. relatively complex though it sounds simple..

 

[Oshengems]

Saying “don’t try that do what I do” is not how we advance not just in this hobby but anything we do collectively, sucks for new reefers and I think this is why many after just a year turn the hobby down so many mixed opinions and emotions and everyone is an expert in just one thread alone, imagine someone not knowing anything about this hobby coming into this thread looking for useful information for sure he will leave more confused that inform, denying others of their success I just plain wrong and even thinking LEDs don’t belong in this hobby is a bit ludacris. The very same people supplying us with these beautiful corals are using LEDs as well as T5s and MH they ALL PRODUCE RESULTS PERIOD! Their is no denying these facts! Call it marketing schemes or point of sale, those people at WWC then are very good con artist because that 900g is just phenomenal and attempting to take even 1% of that shows the bitterness in your hearts, this was a very good thread when it started SMH! I have seen tanks fail with MH, T5s, Hybrids and LEDs can someone explain that to me? The person that got me back into the Hobby has a 40g breeder with LED Chinese black box and his tank is phenomenal! Going on 4 years!

Can we please get back to the topic and play nice we are adults not children it’s a hobby, unless anymone here has a PHD in reefkeeping plz don’t bash others in their success that’s just too unethical.

 

[Velcro]

Adam at Battlecorals grows under 6500k with MH and T5 sections. He does use a few LED, but I cannot remember if he ever talks about those.

He does speak about his LEDs. In fact, he says his 6500K halides and photon v2's ACHIEVE THE SAME RESULTS. When asked LED vs T5 vs Halide he literally says the LEDs achieve the same thing as halide, and that the real comparison is the T5 blanket of light vs the better coloration that he gets with the "punch" of the LEDs.

People like adam are the ones that make me take a lot of Halide and T5 vs "subpar" LEDs preaching with a tiny grain of salt. This is a person that has been doing this for years, does it for profit and isn't backed by some crazy ecotech sponsorship (cough WWC). He's the real deal and he swears by BUDGET priced reefbreeders.

 

[tsav87]

But growing frags is different from the typical at home reef environment.

Shading is to me a bigger factor than light source.

 

[jda]

He has them right next to each other in that video. They are both lighting the same corals with overlap. Ask him if he thinks that they are the same when you isolate each one... he will give you a different story. I can assure you that Photon V2 cannot achieve the same thing as a good MH - this is one of the panels that I have a lot of experience with... it has a ceiling of 75-80% of what the MH can do... but that might be good enough for the "just fine" crowd, but "just fine" to me is Copps or Steve Weast level. The white in this panel can REALLY harm/burn coral if too close and up too high... not as bad as the V1, but still bad. I also have to point out that he runs his panels in a way that nearly nobody else does... up high and 100%... only a few people do this and they seem to have the best results.** I have said for a long time that if I was forced to run LED it would be Photon V2 or Atlantik V4 up really high over the tank and at 100%.

I do appreciate that he is not funded by EcoTech and spends his own cash... that does say a lot and I respect it more than others. I got asked a while back to be on a sponsored team with a massive amount of free equipment - I declined.

**I will ask this again, why do the tanks with 100% power seem to get better results? Can it be that the corals are sensitive to PWM? Nobody had any opinions when I asked before.

 

[Velcro]

He has them right next to each other in that video. They are both lighting the same corals with overlap. Ask him if he thinks that they are the same when you isolate each one... he will give you a different story. I can assure you that Photon V2 cannot achieve the same thing as a good MH - this is one of the panels that I have a lot of experience with... it has a ceiling of 75-80% of what the MH can do... but that might be good enough for the "just fine" crowd, but "just fine" to me is Copps or Steve Weast level. The white in this panel can REALLY harm/burn coral if too close and up too high... not as bad as the V1, but still bad. I also have to point out that he runs his panels in a way that nearly nobody else does... up high and 100%... only a few people do this and they seem to have the best results.** I have said for a long time that if I was forced to run LED it would be Photon V2 or Atlantik V4 up really high over the tank and at 100%.

I do appreciate that he is not funded by EcoTech and spends his own cash... that does say a lot and I respect it more than others. I got asked a while back to be on a sponsored team with a massive amount of free equipment - I declined.

**I will ask this again, why do the tanks with 100% power seem to get better results? Can it be that the corals are sensitive to PWM? Nobody had any opinions when I asked before.

he's using lumenbrite reflectors which are about as spotlight as it gets. The middle sections of the LEDs probably don't get very much of the halide. Also, he's had tanks with JUST v1 photons IIRC.

 

[jda]

Lumen Brite Large can easily handle 36x36 inches at about 10" off of the water... at that height, much more. I think that you are stretching here. If anything the Photon would be more focused, but at that height, it is probably spreading just a much as the Halides are.

I run the regular (medium) LBs and even a pair of them will almost cover a 6' tank while inside of a hood about 8 inches up... not quite, so I use three, but they are not as much of a spotlight/penetrator as LumenMax Elite is - I run a few of these too.

 

[tsav87]

LEDs didn't advance the hobby, they only made the top of the tank less bulky

 

[Lasse]

**I will ask this again, why do the tanks with 100% power seem to get better results? Can it be that the corals are sensitive to PWM? Nobody had any opinions when I asked before.

In my plan for what to write in this thread - this question will come up but this thread is like a wild fire and I want to take the things in a certain order. the next thing I was up to is the Kelvin "rules" - Like PAR - there is 6500 K and there is 6500 K. See post 143 above. Here is some other spectra - all mathematically calculated to 6500 K with my fixture Mitras LED Bar 2

​

Sincerely Lasse

 

[oreo54]

[QUOTE="tsav87, post: 5095114, member: 6]didn't advance the hobby, they only made the top of the tank less bulky [/QUOTE]

Depends what you mean by advancing...maybe even advancing it to look backwards..
There certainly are things in those photos that could be labelled but ugly...

 

[oreo54]

**I will ask this again, why do the tanks with 100% power seem to get better results? Can it be that the corals are sensitive to PWM? Nobody had any opinions when I asked before.

LED's driven at 100% are out of the PWM range.. Basically pure DC..
it's possible but unlikely.. pretty simplistic organisms..

Wave action simulates PWM though usually at a much lower periodicity..
Sadly photo is over dead coral..point is the ocean is NOT like a t5...
I question a bit if this is simulated or not though..

Phillips coralcare change mA output so not really PWM btw..

 

[teller]

As usual this thread derailed.
So I make my comment.
We are in 2018,
how many years did the MH lighting start as common use and then adopted and adapted to this hobby?
How many years the fluorescent lights did start as common use and then adopted and adapted to this hobby?
Yes I remember leds in the 70's, the 80's, the 90' and even in the first decade of this century.....
I remember in 2010, 2011 or even 2012, replacing my home bulbs with led bulbs..... Sarcasm.
Mass adoption of led lights only started about 3 years ago.
Led lighting technology, like previous lighting forms did during decades , are in development.
I don't accept people saying that led lightning already peaked? Are you joking?
When I started in the saltwater about 5 years ago, I read, read, read about everything and I remember threads in Reef central archive from eg 2002,2003,2004 where people were burning sps with MH and T5.

 

[greg 45]

After trying to keep up with this post it I am at a complete loss. Every tank is different from water quality to lighting. Some have good luck with leds , some metal halides , better not forget t 5 . What pleases ones eye doesn't make the next person happy. Do they all grow corals yes some better than others . What ever works on your system stick with it. Your corals don't know the name brand of your bulbs , or what kelvin they are or the name of your black boxes. Keep on reefing .

 

[Greenstreet.1]

? For you light experts. How hi off the water line would you recommend for a t5/LED mix over an sps tank 21” height

 

[SDchris]

@Greenstreet.1
Move them up and down till you find the sweet spot you like. Don't simply follow someone else.
FWIW, there are beautiful sps tanks that have them at a distance from: sitting on the brace to over 500mm. Given your tank height.

 

[OMGitsManBearPig]

What’s with the renewed negativity? I thought we were back on topic? Sure... there was a bit of a problem earlier but I am personally enjoying the discussion... it’s like people just jumped in and started spreading negativity all of the sudden?

A lot of great knowledge being shared here... don’t let the trolls grind this thread to a halt