8.0 Ammonia for almost two months

[Water Dog]

We haven’t found any source as yet. We won’t know if the source water is the cause of the ammonia until it is tested. I’m just trying to eliminate variables. Quite frankly, I am not in this to prove or disprove any research or theories. I’m more interested in getting the OP’s tank up and running.

 

[brandon429]

and I'm thinking it possibly could be ready to run unless a massive source of ammonia is confirmed lol/then clean that out~ I guess from the posted actions we can piece an outcome eventually. its neat to work with mixed sands, that's rare.
I'm wondering how cloudy the sandbed is right now if you reach in, grab some, and drop it.

 

[Vic73]

I think this is very sound advice here. Essentially, what we are trying to do here is to determine the source of your high ammonia levels. We have ruled out the sand due to the 100% sand change. Now we have your live rock and maybe even the water you’re getting from your LFS.

The water tested 0-.25 at the beginning. I am concerned with taking rock out and having it dry out and die as I test which one would be the issue. I don’t understand live rock at this point as two of them where not in water when I bought them and the other four were in water. If I just had one rock to start, would just putting them in a bucket with tank water keep them going at least until I find the source or the ammonia dips to 0?

 

[Water Dog]

Try the smell test first as Brandon429 suggested earlier. If you’re getting 8.0 ppm ammonia and it seems to be rising, the only thing I can think of is some organics decaying in the rock. Take each piece out and give it a whiff. You’ll most definitely smell decay if it’s there.

 

[brandon429]

It’s ok to have live rock in the air for sampling or algae cleaning etc. I keep a video file handy of me draining my entire reef tank empty for 33 mins straight, corals and all in the air plus pods and micro brittle stars, to demo how strong live rock is which is why I’m amazed if yours died out just getting relocated from pet store to home. 30 mins and below, no prob for live rock. I bet five hours wouldn’t hurt it, but my sps don’t like much more than thirty mins they’re the limiter


https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-over-dose.610509/#post-6144586

found that gem. a .5 salifert, *8 PPM API spread.

 

[SinkyShippy]

Exactly. The other misinformation on the first page I quoted was that not enough live rock was causing 8ppm ammonia. You can cycle an empty tank. Maybe a high bioload would struggle, but there's still lots of surface area. You can cycle an empty tank. Look at half of the quarantine setups that have bacteria established.

My apologies. I was not clear in my original comment. I was just saying in general that the user needs more live rock.

 

[MnFish1]

The water tested 0-.25 at the beginning. I am concerned with taking rock out and having it dry out and die as I test which one would be the issue. I don’t understand live rock at this point as two of them where not in water when I bought them and the other four were in water. If I just had one rock to start, would just putting them in a bucket with tank water keep them going at least until I find the source or the ammonia dips to 0?

I wouldn't let it 'die'
I would take your old rock out - put it in a bucket with an ayirstone, a powerhead and a heater - and change all of your water and wait - (testing both the bucket the rock is in - and also the DT) - if the ammonia rises again - in the bucket - or in the tank - you will know the cause - if it rises in both well... then.... hmmm... But no - dont dry out yoru live rock... given what you've said before this should only take a couple days and your rock from the tank will be fine

 

[MnFish1]

My apologies. I was not clear in my original comment. I was just saying in general that the user needs more live rock.

no need to apologize

 

[icejam]

I would remove all the decorations and shells. If those were collected in the wild there would be lots of organic matter in them.
Also remove canister filter completely.
I also couldn't see a heater in the photos.

 

[MnFish1]

I would remove all the decorations and shells. If those were collected in the wild there would be lots of organic matter in them.
Also remove canister filter completely.
I also couldn't see a heater in the photos.

Curious - why?

 

[icejam]

Curious - why?

Why?

Have you ever picked shells at the see side?
They smell rotten half an hour later.

Remove canister filter to eliminate another variable from the equation

 

[MnFish1]

Why?

Have you ever picked shells at the see side?
They smell rotten half an hour later.

Remove canister filter to eliminate another variable from the equation

Sorry - I thought you meant something else. agree

 

[Vic73]

Try the smell test first as Brandon429 suggested earlier. If you’re getting 8.0 ppm ammonia and it seems to be rising, the only thing I can think of is some organics decaying in the rock. Take each piece out and give it a whiff. You’ll most definitely smell decay if it’s there.

Really I didn’t know that. I started one rock at a time based on look but smell is a good idea. Thanks

 

[Vic73]

Curious - why?

I did remove the mussel shells and there is a heater. Thanks

 

[Vic73]

It’s ok to have live rock in the air for sampling or algae cleaning etc. I keep a video file handy of me draining my entire reef tank empty for 33 mins straight, corals and all in the air plus pods and micro brittle stars, to demo how strong live rock is which is why I’m amazed if yours died out just getting relocated from pet store to home. 30 mins and below, no prob for live rock. I bet five hours wouldn’t hurt it, but my sps don’t like much more than thirty mins they’re the limiter


https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-over-dose.610509/#post-6144586

found that gem. a .5 salifert, *8 PPM API spread.

What does that last sentence mean?

 

[Mariette]

Really I didn’t know that. I started one rock at a time based on look but smell is a good idea. Thanks

Yeah. Smell test 100%. I bought 110pounds of live rock off kijiji. Tank started to smell. Narrowed it down to 1 piece after a quick smell test. This thing was putrid. No mistaking the stench.

 

[DarrenCar]

What does that last sentence mean?

The last sentence refers to the thread that is linked where the API test kit was reading 8ppm and the Salifert kit was .5 on the ammonia. I have been following this thread and while I am NO expert in the matters just a beginner myself I would most defiantly try another brand of test kit if I were you.

 

[wareagle]

SeaChem
"Since both Nessler and salicylate tests are
run at a pH of greater than 12, they measure as
ammonia any substance which can generate ammonia
or primary amine groups at high pH, including ammonia com-
plexed to ammonia removing conditioners. The salicylate tests
rely on the reaction of ammonia with hypochlorite or chlorine,
and, consequently, any aquarium product capable of removing
chlorine (dechlorinators and bisulfite based ammonia condition-
ers) can be expected to interfere with color development, even
when ammonia is present."
Your testing results are different than your ammonia alert badge correct? And you have rock in the tank that was exposed to tap water treatment chemicals and potentially chloramine correct? It's possible that you're running yourself in a circle here, and it's also possible that your tap water had high levels of chloramine and you didn't treat it with enough conditioner. That rock that you're worried about could be leaching all kinds of stuff into the water. Simply rinsing it off isn't going to be good enough, and you should pick up a total and free chlorine test to rule out chloramine being leached into the water from those rocks. The test you showed earlier was only for free chlorine. Homedepot and lowes have total and free chlorine test strips.

 

[MnFish1]

SeaChem
"Since both Nessler and salicylate tests are
run at a pH of greater than 12, they measure as
ammonia any substance which can generate ammonia
or primary amine groups at high pH, including ammonia com-
plexed to ammonia removing conditioners. The salicylate tests
rely on the reaction of ammonia with hypochlorite or chlorine,
and, consequently, any aquarium product capable of removing
chlorine (dechlorinators and bisulfite based ammonia condition-
ers) can be expected to interfere with color development, even
when ammonia is present."
Your testing results are different than your ammonia alert badge correct? And you have rock in the tank that was exposed to tap water treatment chemicals and potentially chloramine correct? It's possible that you're running yourself in a circle here, and it's also possible that your tap water had high levels of chloramine and you didn't treat it with enough conditioner. That rock that you're worried about could be leaching all kinds of stuff into the water. Simply rinsing it off isn't going to be good enough, and you should pick up a total and free chlorine test to rule out chloramine being leached into the water from those rocks. The test you showed earlier was only for free chlorine. Homedepot and lowes have total and free chlorine test strips.

This was discussed previously - and never answered (i.e. what if any conditioners were used to 'dechlorinate' the water). That said - I believe (though not positive) that the free chlorine would also have been positive if the ammonia level were really 8 ppm. The amount of chloramine used in tap water is far less than 8 ppm. Up to 4 ppm in drinking water is considered safe.

Isn't the reason the alert badge is less is that its reading 'free ammonia' not 'total ammonia' which the kit reads?

I dont know of any reason why chloramine would be concentrated in rocks - in other words - there shouldn't have been >8 ppm in the water in the first place. But - lets say there was 2 ppm Chloramine in the original water - 2 ppm chloramine certainly could have gotten into the rock but its not like it would just 'stay there' - it will slowly degrade - and he replaced all of his water with RODI NSW - so the maximum amount of ammonia from the rock if it was from Chloramine would be 2 ppm - (and that would be a very high estimate) or?

In any case to @Vic73 - apologies if this was already answered - but - did you use a de-chlorinator when you first started the tank? Do you remember which one?

 

[wareagle]

What makes you think the 8ppm is accurate? If something gives you a false positive it doesn't mean it's correct for the amount of whatever gave you a false positive. Seachem have stated that their tests aren't compatible with several products, like amquel +. Just using prime as an example, it doesn't treat the full EPA allowed amount of chloramine, and it's why the instructions let you know that you can double the dose if needed. Chlorine would be gone from the water within a few days at most, chloramine can take over 90 days. You can't just come up with numbers to use based on a test that is not accurate, or an estimated amount of water treatment chemicals.