A bit disappointed with Julian Sprung's MACNA talk

In some cases this is true. My concern was that Julian, engaging in some selective science himself in this talk. I don't necessarily disagree with his view point but this approach isn't helpful.



Well, I think the moral question is up for debate.
Please don't take this as hostile, as it's an honest request, could you point me in the direction of the peer reviewed literature that indicates that fish/coral collection measurably degrades reef ecosystems? Thanks!
 
I appreciate your perspective, I'm accustomed to looking at this type of thing through the lens of politics since that's how I'm trained, specifically the politics of development. I agree, ultimately reefs have value because we, people, assign them value. IMO the ethical policy is one that keeps this in mind, and balances the need to preserve these resources while still making use of them.

This is where I fall also. This means engaging in the discussions not just on the practical environmental impacts but also the ethical and moral questions.

My background is in policy, strategy and regulation. I come at this not necessarily from a political or scientific perspective, but from the perspective of how the hobby can survive and do more good than harm in the current political, scientific and moral climate.

This is a complex question as this thread has already shown. I'm glad my comments have been taken in the spirit in which they were intended and this has been a really interesting thread.
 
Please don't take this as hostile, as it's an honest request, could you point me in the direction of the peer reviewed literature that indicates that fish/coral collection measurably degrades reef ecosystems? Thanks!

I don't take that as a hostile question. The simple answer is no, I can't. It simply isn't my area of expertise and I'm not qualified to have a view on it.

So, I'm not arguing that wild collection measurably degrades reef ecosystems. I am arguing that the industry needs to strategically deal with the perception that this and other moral and ethical questions are valid. I'm arguing that to do that you need to step back and acknowledge the issues, have regard to the science warts and all, and take action that demonstrates that the industry is an agent for change where it does not meet community standards. This can be done pragmatically, honestly and profitably.

I don't think that "but look at all the good stuff we do" and " animals rights and environmental activists are the enemy" are effective strategies long term. Neither is "my science is better than your science".
 
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In some cases this is true. My concern was that Julian, engaging in some selective science himself in this talk. I don't necessarily disagree with his view point but this approach isn't helpful.



Well, I think the moral question is up for debate.

Cue the nihilists.
 
I don't think its obvious which is better for the environment, in each particular case, aquaculture or wild collection. If you think it is obvious you really haven't considered the topic seriously. Please note that I am not advocating for any particular stance, I'm just hoping that I might encourage people to think a little more carefully about the topic. First, think about the amount of resources that go into aquaculture (which we know is significantly higher then wild caught in many cases as a consequence of the higher price), and now consider the environmental impact of all that activity, then weigh that against the harm caused via the collection of a relatively limited number of animals and then add the much smaller material/environmental cost of bringing those animals to market. It's really not cut and dry for most cases.
This central point regarding the efficacy of aqua culturing is a huge component of the arguement for finding balance between practices. What do you think aquacultured fish are fed with? Fish. Where does fish come from? The wild. And so on and so forth. I think Julian, while approaching this delicately, was still pushing a polarizing agenda which no matter how he worded it was going to come across as self-serving.
 
Presentation window was what, 40 - 45 minutes? Keep that in mind as you listen to the replay. Emotional topic that presses hot buttons on many.
 
Here's the video so you can make up your own minds. Julian clearly is a man that is held in deep respect within the hobby and I agree with a lot of what he says but disagree with the overall approach being taken.

I guess I have a few issues -

- I don't want to put words in Julian's mouth but what I hear from him and many other's with a financial stake in the industry is that the financial stake in and of itself is enough motivation for businesses to "do the right thing". Some also go further and say that in fact, it makes them best placed to decide what the right thing is. I don't want to get too far in to the politics here but it seems a strange position to take with so many recent and historical examples of businesses who not only survived but thrived on doing the wrong thing and the well documented and long list of harms caused by deregulation and failures of markets to respond to harm.

- Julian defends the legitimacy and appropriateness of aquaculture, mariculture and wild caught fish and corals equally. To me this is a self serving message from the industry. Clearly some methods cause more harm than others environmentally, ethically and financially. Playing in the grey areas as Julian does on some of these issues is a classic tactic that interest groups and lobbyists use but it is not a sustainable tactic in defending the hobby.

- I don't like singling out the extremists or outliers and then saying, "see, they're all crazy and nothing like us". In fact, most animal rights organisations do not take an absolutist position, respect the science and seek better regulation and improved practices - not abolition. Unfortunately, many in the industry take the position that whether moderate or extreme they should be treated the same way, as a threat. That seems silly from a PR perspective given that we are not polar opposites as Sprung tries to imply, but in many ways concerned by the same things like the welfare of these animals. Why aren't we working with them on things like certification and best practice? Better in the tent pee-peeing out than outside pee-peeing in.

- Denial, or attempting to discredit the animal rights movement is counter productive and short sighted. You can't win this way because the fact is they hold a moral high ground because they don't take animals from the wild, transport them in less than ideal and sometimes cruel conditions where many die and keep them in captivity for the rest of their lives. We can argue all day about the extent of harm because there is a whole spectrum of scientific research on sentience, pain, an psychology of animals that takes different positions on this (holding up a book that argues differently changes little), but I think most reasonable people would agree that there is in fact some harm caused by the hobby which could be better dealt with. Dealing with the issues and improving practices and regulation based on the science is the alternative and sustainable approach and one that will lead to long term sustainability of the industry.

- I found the argument about migration of species in to the Atlantic via the southern tip of Africa absurd and self serving. It is the same logic used by climate denialists. That the sudden and abrupt environmental impacts of changes caused by humans don't really mater because similar things have happened over millions of years in the past. In this case, don't blame hobbyists for the explosion of feral animals dumped by aquarists and people shipping fish in bilges causing enormous environmental harm because a species of fish once swum past the Cape of Good Hope. Here in Australia we have seen the devastation caused by the introduction of crown of thorns starfish, rabbits, cane toads and others which could only have happened with human intervention.

I guess what I am saying in summary is that denial, obfuscation and generating conflict are not good long-term strategies to help the hobby survive criticism and activism. Responding to good science through improved practices is.
I dont know whats right or wrong - I don't want to get into a political discussion (at all) - but just from the reading - it seems like you aren't giving a valid rationale for your positions either - note I'm not saying you're wrong - but you making similar type of logic/argument as the video. (Both seem to be 'opinions - so with no offense - its hard to say 'you're right and hes wrong - or vice versa...

For example -
In fact, most animal rights organisations do not take an absolutist position, respect the science and seek better regulation and improved practices - not abolition.

I dont know where you get this information - but PETA's position is https://www.peta.org/issues/animal-companion-issues/animal-companion-factsheets/fish-tanks-thanks/. I certainly don't know what 'most animal rights organizations do or think' - but there is a growing movement that all aquarium keeping is 'immoral'. Whether its mainstream or not - IDK. But my GUESS is that its going more that way than the other way.
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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