A discussion on immunity

[mcarroll]

I agree. It'd probably be better if we ate more live critters (vs probiotics) for that same reason.......yeah, that's not gonna happen soon.

I figure bug-eating, or maybe worms, will be my way into the eating of live critters...but I can barely type that, let alone do it. I'll stick with yogurt for now. Whole lacto-bacteria do count...there just isn't much variety of them. Kefir is a nice addition, but still not a lot more diversity. (Which may be fine - it was mentioned that gut bacteria diversity isn't necessarily a good/beneficial thing anyway, but a sign of disturbance or poor health/diet.)

 

[Paul B]

When we eat raw fruits and vegetables we get live bacteria. If you ride the New York City subway system, you get plenty of it.

We are also different from fish in that our kidneys are not our primary immune system as it is in fish where their kidney makes antibodies.
Of course this thread goes along with this article I wrote a while ago.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

 

[Paul B]

Your immune system (also called your lymphatic system) is made up of a bunch of specialized organs and cells, these are what carry out your body's immune responses that keep you from getting murdered by all the bacteria, viruses and things of that nature. Bacteria are not actually part of the lymphatic system and while they do play a role in disease resistance/susceptibility they can not really be considered part of it. Its important to remember lots of things play a role in disease resistance/susceptibility (age,race, sex, weight or genetics just to name a few).

Fish don't have a lymphatic system. They make their antibodies in their kidney and spleen. They also have no bone marrow. They use the bacteria that filters through their kidneys to support their immune system. I dated a girl who looked like a flounder and she seemed very healthy. Maybe thats why.

 

[Shep]

Fish don't have a lymphatic system. They make their antibodies in their kidney and spleen. They also have no bone marrow. They use the bacteria that filters through their kidneys to support their immune system. I dated a girl who looked like a flounder and she seemed very healthy. Maybe thats why.

That is not entirely true some fish do not have true lymphatic but instead depend of other organs to make their immune defenses (so they still have one just not as advanced as ours) other fish do have what could be considered a more advanced immune system.

 

[Paul B]

I think, (and I have been reading) that fish in some ways have a more advanced immune system than we do. That is because fish live in water and it is much easier for pathogens to contact fish in water than air. Also the water a fish lives in is actually an extension of their blood as everything in the water is in the fish through the gills. I am sure much of it is filtered out but the air we breathe is relatively clean compared to the water fish are in. We don't normally breathe in parasites as fish do nor do we eat the entire parts of other animals as fish do along with whatever is in their guts, livers and stomach so we are not as exposed to pathogens that they are. Fish have also had millions of years longer than we did to evolve their immune system.
IMO of course.

 

[Paul B]

How many blackworms does a fish need to eat before he/she is in "breeding condition"?

I can actually answer that. 6 weeks. As I have mentioned many times in some of my posts, when this hobby started in New York in 1971, I started my tank and filled it with 7 blue devils. They lived fine but just lived, and being that was before cell phones they didn't even text. Then I started feeding them live blackworms like I was feeding my fresh water spawning fish. In about 6 or 7 weeks, one of them, the male turned all blue. Even his fins turned blue and the other 6 fish stayed with clear fins. Then the male started chasing the females around until they spawned. They continued spawning for the remaining 6 years or so that I had them. This is when we had no reef tanks, just un-healthy fish tanks with dead bleached corals. That is when I started thinking about live foods for fish health and have been feeding live worms ever since which is why virtually all my paired fish are spawning including ruby red dragonettes, mandarins, bangai cardinals, bluestripe pipefish, fireclowns, watchman gobies, yellow clown gobies and hopefully soon yellow wrasses. I believe this is all from the live foods and maybe the live bacteria in the guts of the live worms, baby brine shrimp and clams they are fed "every" day of their lives. All of my fish (that don't jump out) die of old age, some of them are in their 20s. Reading these forums we are inundated with threads about fish diseases. I believe fish should never have a disease and I "think" probiotics or bacteria from live foods are the key. I am far from a doctor, researcher or a guy with hair. I am just an old guy with a fish tank, but I believe scientific experiments last a few months to a couple of years or until the money runs out. My "experiment" has been going on for over forty years and so far still seems to be heading in the right direction as far as diseases are concerned. Maybe commercial probiotics will work, I don't know. Maybe it is just live food and maybe it is the bacteria in the food. I wish I knew the exact mechanism but I figured I am getting old and I wanted to post my ideas now before I get senile. That is also the reason I wrote a book and I am sure the 3 or 4 people who read it will enjoy it. I can't wait to read it to see if I still agree with myself.
Blue devil over his nest of eggs in that barnacle shell Circa 1972. This may have been the first breeding of blue devils in this hobby, (but I am guessing)

 

[Humblefish]

Where can I buy the book?

 

[Paul B]

It will be sold through Saltwater Smarts where I am a writer.

 

[Shep]

It will be sold through Saltwater Smarts where I am a writer.

So can I get an autographed copy for when you become a best selling world famous author?

 

[Diesel]

So can I get an autographed copy for when you become a best selling world famous author?

Only when you become a PB supporter............. but no PB Swag or bling

 

[Paul B]

Actually a few people have asked me for an autographed copy. (Like Really ) Of course my Daughter is one of them. She wants to throw me a book signing party in the New York aquarium. I told her I think that is a little too ambitious. I will be happy if "I" read it as I doubt it will get a Pulitzer or have a movie made with Brad Pitt playing me with a cast of thousands. ( Probably pee Wee Herman). It is written like I write all my posts so it is not very stoic, but kind of humorous. At least I think so anyway. I am not sure if I can post an excerpt from it as I would have to ask the publisher. As I said it will be put out by Saltwater Smarts as I am a writer there (http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/)
It will come in a E Book and a paperback. I am sure the E Book will be a lot cheaper as "E" doesn't cost anything.
I think it has about 120 pictures and maybe 200 pages of text but I don't really know because after editing, it changes a lot. It also has a lot of references to Supermodels in it as I figure they are as important as amphipods in the scheme of things.

 

[Diesel]

references to Supermodels

You convinced me of at least 5 copies, you should think about a Paul B calendar with sexy amphipods and Super models in there

 

[Paul B]

It's in the works.

 

[Paul B]

I just dumped 20 gallons of water from the Long Island Sound into my tank as I have been doing for decades. I just strained out the seaweed and jellyfish as these things will rot and turn into nitrate which I already have enough of. The natural water also has some bacteria in it. Not much in the water itself but on the microscopic particles that are always associated with NSW. many people ask me if I am afraid of introducing parasites and diseases and I always say something like "Do I look afraid?" As years go by my thinking has changed and now I am afraid to use water that does not have some bacteria and parasites in it because I feel it enhances the fishes immunity. Of course I couldn't do that to a tank where everything was quarantined and the fish were eating sterile food or I would kill everything. I am so surprised the hobby has not at least tried to think about keeping fish a natural way and instead insist on trying to keep everything out then curing them when they get sick. To me, it is mind boggling and my mind is boggled enough without worrying that my fish will get sick. I can't imagine buying a fish than stressing it out for 2 months in quarantine then when it has virtually no immune system and is stressed beyond belief, introduce it to a mixed community of fish. It must be very hard on such a fish.

I can't even mention this on some forums or they would (and have) closed the thread. That is unfortunate.

 

[Diesel]

I have a really stupid question........... do you feed the blackworms alive or do you freeze them?

 

[Paul B]

I don't feed stupid worms, they are all quite intelligent and alive. You can freeze them, and I do when I am going on vacation because the Supermodel who comes over to feed my fish don't do worms so when they are frozen, I just tell her they are angel hair spaghetti. I like the live worms because I feel (maybe incorrectly) that the bacteria in their guts would be in better shape to "tweek" their immune system. Your fish were designed to eat live food and just about everything they eat in the sea is alive. They rarely eat flakes and pellets in the sea.
Here is a video of them eating live worms. It would be very boreing to watch them eat pellets because they have never seen them and wouldn't know what to do with them.
Every fish in this video is spawning, except the copperband, I wish!

 

[Diesel]

LOL interesting as always.
I believe I didn't say they were stupid, only when worms are frozen we can call them stupid, IMO.

 

[mcarroll]

[....]I can't even mention this on some forums or they would (and have) closed the thread. That is unfortunate.

Willful ignorance. My favorite feature of humanity!! In fact, if the site closed your thread, that makes it institutionalized willful ignorance. Sad indeed.

"You can lead a horse to water..."

 

[Paul B]

Diesel, I know what you said, I just added some creative license that I have no reason to add. These things pop into my head and I can't get them out.

 

[Paul B]

I posted this elsewhere but I am tired or writing so I will put it here and make believe I just wrote it. Actually I did just write it 5 minutes ago.

Remember I am not advocating my methods nor do I advocate using a reverse UG filter as I do. But my methods are not controversial. Everyone else's are because when the hobby started, we all went by the methods I still use. Because of the internet, and as you pointed out the aquarium industry doesn't make much with my methods and I am sure they all hate me and wish I would get stung by urchins and disappear to an Island run by Supermodels with no means of escape.

I can't help it that I feel natural methods are the way to go. I am sorry for the industry but I am not here to keep anyone in business. (I even invented and hold the patent for the Majano Wand) If I find a product I like, I will mention it as there are plenty of good devices, skimmers, pumps, powerheads etc. I don't push them because I rarely buy anything as mine have lasted for decades so I have no experience with most of them. I am not an advocate of dead foods and I never was. I am sorry, I just have problems with the fact that oils and bacteria are missing. I have used flakes and pellets for years and they have their place. I just think fresh is better. Tomatoes are an excellent food (for us) and are full of vitamin C, but there are no major tomato growers so they are not pushed as a source of vitamin C. But there are a few very large orange growers so oranges are advertised as a great source of vitamin C even though tomatoes have more of that vitamin than oranges.



I love this hobby and try to teach the methods that I know because I have been doing it so long that I have made all the mistakes and probably killed more fish than Starkist tuna. I can now keep almost any fish for it's full normal lifespan and never have to worry about disease. I realize my tank could crash from ich. But how long do scientific experiments last? A few months, a couple of years? My tank has been running disease free for probably 35 years. I can't really prove it because there were no computers then and I have few pictures. Information just wasn't shared then but my tank did appear in a few aquarium magazines 20 years ago.

I rarely go on a certain fish forum that I won't mention any more because they don't believe in immunity at all and they would delete this thread. But, even though they don't agree with me I gave them a challenge a few times. I asked them to send me a parasite infected fish and I would put it in my reef as a test. They wouldn't do it because (I think) that would prove my point and they would have no explanation. They just tout quarantine everything for 2 months or cure them when they get sick. I don't think fish should "ever" get sick and I "think" I have found out why.



I think if you start a tank with fish that were only quarantined a short while maybe with copper, or not at all into a mature, healthy tank. Not just started with ASW. They would probably become covered in some sort of parasites. But if you start out feeding nothing but live foods and if you can, run a diatom filter, I feel in a few days, those fish would eliminate the parasites and become immune. Of course some of them may die as I have never tried this, I am just thinking out loud. (I also have no way of knowing how long along the disease is)

Sometimes when I put in a new fish it will exhibit some spots, but they always lose them in a day or so as they become healthy in my tank with the live food and I assume their immune system starts working soon because they still have their immunity from the sea.

I know that at least 782 people will disagree with me and that's fine. No one has to use my methods and I am not saying to. What I am asking is to just think about the mechanism that keeps our fish healthy. Why do your fish get sick and what can we do to prevent it.