A GFCI Guy joins the community.

[Steve Zee]

Hi Everyone,

I’m new to the reef2reef forums but not new to GFCI technology. I own a company that designs and produces sophisticated GFCI’s for portable power systems (electrical systems and circuits beyond the service panel). We specialize in live broadcast media as well as the motion picture/television industry. After all, you can’t have your live feed “go dark” in overtime because the broadcast trailer tripped a GFCI! I also sit on several review boards that set ANSI standards for determining the best and safest protocols to energize equipment safely. We also helped write the NEC standard for UL-943A regarding “Class A” personal protection… Ugh! I’m only saying all this to hopefully provide confidence in my ability to provide insight/ knowledge. I think there is a lot of confusion here about how GFCI’s work and proper ways to address current leakage and safely setup your components around your tank.

I have learned so much from this community and my reintroduction into the hobby. Just feel like I could give back if possible. I know many very knowledgeable electricians are already here and provide much needed knowledge. Maybe I could help troubleshoot specific problem or answer questions that fall in the the “multiple opinions” issues that seems to come up a lot.

Steve

 

[strawberryfish]

 

[theMeat]

Welcome Steve
Do you think everyone should have their tank gfci protected paired with a ground probe?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Never enough resources.

 

[Tcook]

Are there better, more reliable, safer, gfci units that we should consider rather than the typical ones at the box stores that I would imagine most electricians use in typical home wiring?

 

[Steve Zee]

Welcome Steve
Do you think everyone should have their tank gfci protected paired with a ground probe?

This is a great question of course. But for me, it needs more context. For personal (human) protection there is no doubt that it is safer to go without a grounding probe. Never add a grounding potential when you don’t have to. It’s like adding a safety handle that makes you think it’s safe but it’s only glued on. We normally use both hands when working on our tank and devices around the tank, adding a grounding probe in very conductive salt water means the potential is increased and if one hand becomes energized while a large area of water (like your sump) has a qualified return to ground is a mistake! Remove that potential and use GFCI! Now, someone else would need to enlighten me on the safety the grounding rod provides our critters dealing with stray AC in the water. It’s a real thing for sure, I’ve felt it as a diver on “The Abyss” when our lights would sometimes have leakage. But my world is focused on human life and safety.

 

[Tcook]

This is a great question of course. But for me, it needs more context. For personal (human) protection there is no doubt that it is safer to go without a grounding probe. Never add a grounding potential when you don’t have to. It’s like adding a safety handle that makes you think it’s safe but it’s only glued on. We normally use both hands when working on our tank and devices around the tank, adding a grounding probe in very conductive salt water means the potential is increased and if one hand becomes energized while a large area of water (like your sump) has a qualified return to ground is a mistake! Remove that potential and use GFCI! Now, someone else would need to enlighten me on the safety the grounding rod provides our critters dealing with stray AC in the water. It’s a real thing for sure, I’ve felt it as a diver on “The Abyss” when our lights would sometimes have leakage. But my world is focused on human life and safety.

Hmm. All wall plugs for my in-wall reef are GFCI and I have a grounding probe in the sump and one in the tank. I may have to pull these. Or unplug the probes before going into the water. I would imagine plugging the probes into Apex controlled outlets would still have a path to ground even when the outlets are turned off?

 

[Idech]

This is a great question of course. But for me, it needs more context. For personal (human) protection there is no doubt that it is safer to go without a grounding probe. Never add a grounding potential when you don’t have to. It’s like adding a safety handle that makes you think it’s safe but it’s only glued on. We normally use both hands when working on our tank and devices around the tank, adding a grounding probe in very conductive salt water means the potential is increased and if one hand becomes energized while a large area of water (like your sump) has a qualified return to ground is a mistake! Remove that potential and use GFCI! Now, someone else would need to enlighten me on the safety the grounding rod provides our critters dealing with stray AC in the water. It’s a real thing for sure, I’ve felt it as a diver on “The Abyss” when our lights would sometimes have leakage. But my world is focused on human life and safety.

Welcome to R2R !

I did a lot of research before buying my grounding probe. I also use GFCi outlets. Is using both okay ? I don’t have a sump. Does it make it okay to use a grounding probe ?

I bought it alter a heater broke in my tank and I felt current touching it. Not a nice feeling…

 

[Sean Clark]

Welcome to the party.

Can you provide any insight into the radio interference that can cause false triggering of GFCI outlets and how to protect against false triggering due to common radio communications bandwidths?

 

[Steve Zee]

Are there better, more reliable, safer, gfci units that we should consider rather than the typical ones at the box stores that I would imagine most electricians use in typical home wiring?

Yes, but likely not necessary. Sophisticated GFCI’s are extremely expensive and are tuned with filtering that reduces frequencies that cause nuisance tripping. Believe it or not, It’s actually very hard to measure current leakage in levels required for Class A protection (less than 6mA.) In my opinion some of the conventional GFCI’s are good- Leviton, Hubbell are just a few. In our case, I would bet that cheap components with excessive harmonics cause 80% of issues members have regarding nuisance tripping.

 

[Steve Zee]

I did a lot of research before buying my grounding probe. I also use GFCi outlets. Is using both okay ? I don’t have a sump. Does it make it okay to use a grounding probe ?

I bought it alter a heater broke in my tank and I felt current touching it. Not a nice feeling…

GFCI’s protect from a “dangerous” or life threatening shock. Chances are it was a minuscule amount of current even though it didn’t feel like it. That’s why it’s imperative to use a GFCI. Look, the grounding probe thing is a debate that we’ve had for years regarding generators and portable reservoirs. The US has adopted a grounded system and it makes a lot of sense but again, it’s also why GFCI’s have become so necessary. Having the potential to “ground” yourself perfectly (like a grounding probe connected to the service ground) can be dangerous. When the current is trying to return to the source (where neutral and ground are bonded) it will take the path of least resistance so why add that possibility? Especially, if you can be between the two. Now, fish health is another story and why I’m here. Would love to understand how grounding probes help.

 

[Steve Zee]

Welcome to the party.

Can you provide any insight into the radio interference that can cause false triggering of GFCI outlets and how to protect against false triggering due to common radio communications bandwidths?

Yes. But you should know, my experience is vast with this particular subject since it’s a real issue with my industry (sounds like you may be aware of this). Is there a more specific question? For instance, do you have a component with your system that is tripping when it’s near a RF signal? If you can’t swap the GFCI out for a better brand you may be able to make a Faraday cage to disperse radio waves. But would need to know the frequency.

 

[theMeat]

This is a great question of course. But for me, it needs more context. For personal (human) protection there is no doubt that it is safer to go without a grounding probe. Never add a grounding potential when you don’t have to. It’s like adding a safety handle that makes you think it’s safe but it’s only glued on. We normally use both hands when working on our tank and devices around the tank, adding a grounding probe in very conductive salt water means the potential is increased and if one hand becomes energized while a large area of water (like your sump) has a qualified return to ground is a mistake! Remove that potential and use GFCI! Now, someone else would need to enlighten me on the safety the grounding rod provides our critters dealing with stray AC in the water. It’s a real thing for sure, I’ve felt it as a diver on “The Abyss” when our lights would sometimes have leakage. But my world is focused on human life and safety.

Since a gfci doesn’t trip with ground interruption, but rather when there is a difference between power and neutral… would never recommend a ground probe without a gfci, think a ground probe paired with a gfci is safest because it gives a path to ground, which a tank or sump might not have, and many items we plug in are 2 prong plugs (not 3, with ground). Not to mention if the stray voltage is lower than the gfci trip point, or gfci is faulty, or ground at outlet is faulty. Your thoughts?

 

[Steve Zee]

Hmm. All wall plugs for my in-wall reef are GFCI and I have a grounding probe in the sump and one in the tank. I may have to pull these. Or unplug the probes before going into the water. I would imagine plugging the probes into Apex controlled outlets would still have a path to ground even when the outlets are turned off?

That’s an option. Thinking of potential where current could travel is always good. Remember wet skin is 1000 times more conductive than dry. Hence all our codes revolving around wet locations and possible wet location. My opinion is that if you are concerned about fish health and want to keep the grounding probe then simply make sure everything is GFCI protected and unplug it when you are “going into the water” - then don’t forget to plug it back in… I really don’t want to imply knowledge about what is bast for the fish.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

I would venture to say 90% of hobbyist here have gfci outlet with ground probe. I have this set up for all 3 of my systems…

 

[Sean Clark]

Yes. But you should know, my experience is vast with this particular subject since it’s a real issue with my industry (sounds like you may be aware of this). Is there a more specific question? For instance, do you have a component with your system that is tripping when it’s near a RF signal? If you can’t swap the GFCI out for a better brand you may be able to make a Faraday cage to disperse radio waves. But would need to know the frequency.

I'll simplify my argument a bit. Why would anyone trust the lifeline of their aquarium system to something which is so often triggered by commonly used RF signals? When the fire department drives by their aquarium power should not shut off. Is there a "better" brand or instillation method that eliminates this as a problem? Do reffers understand the function of a a Faraday cage, is this even reasonable? As to needing to know the frequency goes... Could you produce a GFCI that protects against all RF frequencies? Their uses are always changing and if that was the case then why not just do it? You never know and will never have control over the entire electromagnetic spectrum around you.
I'll pass on allowing that lack of control to impact my reef tank's life support.

 

[Steve Zee]

Since a gfci doesn’t trip with ground interruption, but rather when there is a difference between power and neutral… would never recommend a ground probe without a gfci, think a ground probe paired with a gfci is safest because it gives a path to ground, which a tank or sump might not have, and many items we plug in are 2 prong plugs (not 3, with ground). Not to mention if the stray voltage is lower than the gfci trip point, or gfci is faulty, or ground at outlet is faulty. Your thoughts?

Yes! I’m glad you said that. I think some people might think the grounding probe is a alternative or somehow equivalent. I think in general your opinion is sound. Again, my experience is setting up functioning systems with a focus on human life. Having a perfectly grounded “opportunity” back to the service source can sometimes causes more hazard. Ever wondered why hair dryers don’t have grounding plugs? When we film around water with tons electronics, we usually use a isolation transformer where we remove the ground entirely but that’s where things get confusing and really does a disservice for the scope of safety around our hobby.

 

[Steve Zee]

I would venture to say 90% of hobbyist here have gfci outlet with ground probe. I have this set up for all 3 of my systems…

I wouldn’t know. What would you venture to be the main reason: Fish health or personal protection against electrical shock? And FYI, I’m just offering opinions from my professional experience. I’ve learned a tremendous amount from these boards from others and just wanted to help.

 

[Sean Clark]

I will go out on a limb here and state that 99 times out of 100 GFCI trips are false trips due to lots of issues but most are related to RFI. This does not make your reef safer, it puts your reef at unnecessary risk. The common false tripping of GFCI receptacles and breakers is exactly why Arc fault products exist. GFCI is outdated and only presents another layer of faults that could unnecessarily cripple your tank.

 

[Steve Zee]

I'll simplify my argument a bit. Why would anyone trust the lifeline of their aquarium system to something which is so often triggered by commonly used RF signals? When the fire department drives by their aquarium power should not shut off. Is there a "better" brand or instillation method that eliminates this as a problem? Do reffers understand the function of a a Faraday cage, is this even reasonable? As to needing to know the frequency goes... Could you produce a GFCI that protects against all RF frequencies? Their uses are always changing and if that was the case then why not just do it? You never know and will never have control over the entire electromagnetic spectrum around you.
I'll pass on allowing that lack of control to impact my reef tank's life support.

Gotcha! Sounds like a statement more than a question. As you stated, “I'll pass on allowing that lack of control to impact my reef tank's life support.” I was trying to provide a little more insight about the RF issue when you asked but needed more info. Certainly understand your decision. Peace to you.