A GFCI Guy joins the community.

[theMeat]

Yes! I’m glad you said that. I think some people might think the grounding probe is a alternative or somehow equivalent. I think in general your opinion is sound. Again, my experience is setting up functioning systems with a focus on human life. Having a perfectly grounded “opportunity” back to the service source can sometimes causes more hazard. Ever wondered why hair dryers don’t have grounding plugs? When we film around water with tons electronics, we usually use a isolation transformer where we remove the ground entirely but that’s where things get confusing and really does a disservice for the scope of safety around our hobby.

Yup. Can see what you mean about the hair dryer purposely not be grounded when they could accidentally be grounded to water from sink which would certainly be a direct ground. Except with a tank it wouldn’t necessarily have a ground without a probe. Isolated by plastic plumbing, wooden stand etc.
Thank you for offering your special perspective. It’s what makes this site great.

 

[Sean Clark]

Gotcha! Sounds like a statement more than a question

Here are the questions.

Why would anyone trust the lifeline of their aquarium system to something which is so often triggered by commonly used RF signals?

Is there a "better" brand or instillation method that eliminates this as a problem?

Do reffers understand the function of a Faraday cage, is this even reasonable?

As to needing to know the frequency goes... Could you produce a GFCI that protects against all RF frequencies?

 

[Steve Zee]

I will go out on a limb here and state that 99 times out of 100 GFCI trips are false trips due to lots of issues but most are related to RFI. This does not make your reef safer, it puts your reef at unnecessary risk. The common false tripping of GFCI receptacles and breakers is exactly why Arc fault products exist. GFCI is outdated and only presents another layer of faults that could unnecessarily cripple your tank.

I think this comment: “The common false tripping of GFCI receptacles and breakers is exactly why Arc fault products exist. GFCI is outdated...” makes it clear maybe the idea to help fellow reefers here was a mistake.

 

[Sean Clark]

I think this comment: “The common false tripping of GFCI receptacles and breakers is exactly why Arc fault products exist. GFCI is outdated...” makes it clear maybe the idea to help fellow reefers here was a mistake.

I would simply ask that you make an augment against my view. If I am wrong then I am wong. I am only one person among thousands. You came in pretty strong armed in support of GFCI. I am very interested in the RFI resistance of newer GFCI should that even be possible based on how they work.

 

[theMeat]

I will go out on a limb here and state that 99 times out of 100 GFCI trips are false trips due to lots of issues but most are related to RFI. This does not make your reef safer, it puts your reef at unnecessary risk. The common false tripping of GFCI receptacles and breakers is exactly why Arc fault products exist. GFCI is outdated and only presents another layer of faults that could unnecessarily cripple your tank.

Arc protection and gfci is two different things. Talk about unnecessary or nuisance tripping, arc fault all day…

 

[Sean Clark]

Arc protection and gfci is two different things. Talk about unnecessary or nuisance tripping, arc fault all day…

I understand that arc fault and gfci are two different things. Identifying them as two different technologies was the point of the post.

I wouldn't put my systems at risk under either.

 

[Battlecorals Verified Sponsor]

Hi Everyone,

I’m new to the reef2reef forums but not new to GFCI technology. I own a company that designs and produces sophisticated GFCI’s for portable power systems (electrical systems and circuits beyond the service panel). We specialize in live broadcast media as well as the motion picture/television industry. After all, you can’t have your live feed “go dark” in overtime because the broadcast trailer tripped a GFCI! I also sit on several review boards that set ANSI standards for determining the best and safest protocols to energize equipment safely. We also helped write the NEC standard for UL-943A regarding “Class A” personal protection… Ugh! I’m only saying all this to hopefully provide confidence in my ability to provide insight/ knowledge. I think there is a lot of confusion here about how GFCI’s work and proper ways to address current leakage and safely setup your components around your tank.

I have learned so much from this community and my reintroduction into the hobby. Just feel like I could give back if possible. I know many very knowledgeable electricians are already here and provide much needed knowledge. Maybe I could help troubleshoot specific problem or answer questions that fall in the the “multiple opinions” issues that seems to come up a lot.

Steve

Outstanding! I for one am tremendously thrilled and humbled to to have your expertise on this forum.

 

[Steve Zee]

I would simply ask that you make an augment against my view. If I am wrong then I am wong. I am only one person among thousands. You came in pretty strong armed in support of GFCI. I am very interested in the RFI resistance of newer GFCI should that even be possible based on how they work.

If you are asking me to make an argument about why GFCI’s are outdated and, “are exactly why arc fault products exists” then I’m afraid there can be nothing fruitful about continuing a discussion with you. I respectfully accept your opinion and only tried to provide helpful advice to some member’s questions. And I apologize, It was not my intention to come “in strong armed in support of GFCI” …it is simply my expertise and I wanted to contribute. I will now consider that decision.

 

[theMeat]

I understand that arc fault and gfci are two different things. Identifying them as two different technologies was the point of the post.

I wouldn't put my systems at risk under either.

The point of this thread was a new member offering his knowledge on gfci. Arc protection will offer you better protection from fire but worse protection from electrocution for you and your livestock. If you want to stop Rf interference you could first try to change your gfci which may be older and more sensitive to Rf signal, if that no workie you could put an RFI supression snap-on ferrite on the cable anywhere on that line from the outlet to the circuit breaker box and that should solve the problem.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Here are the questions.

Why would anyone trust the lifeline of their aquarium system to something which is so often triggered by commonly used RF signals?

I'm curious about your experience with this... I have most of my equipment plugged in to GFCI adapters and have never had one randomly trip. I do test them on a rotating schedule, and in 7 years, none have shown to be faulty.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Welcome to the party.

Can you provide any insight into the radio interference that can cause false triggering of GFCI outlets and how to protect against false triggering due to common radio communications bandwidths?

Ferrite cores/chokes worked well for a t5 fixture I used to have...

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I would venture to say 90% of hobbyist here have gfci outlet with ground probe. I have this set up for all 3 of my systems…

So you have a stand alone ground probe? Or are you talking about grounded plugs?
Because I've never really even considered adding a ground probe to my system... I think your 90% estimate is probably way off.

 

[Sean Clark]

If you are asking me to make an argument about why GFCI’s are outdated and, “are exactly why arc fault products exists” then I’m afraid there can be nothing fruitful about continuing a discussion with you. I respectfully accept your opinion and only tried to provide helpful advice to some member’s questions. And I apologize, It was not my intention to come “in strong armed in support of GFCI” …it is simply my expertise and I wanted to contribute. I will now consider that decision.

I never asked you to argue for Arc fault tech over GFCI, but when you come in arguing for GFCI tech I would expect you to do that. Why should one chose to use GFCI tech?

 

[theMeat]

I never asked you to argue for Arc fault tech over GFCI, but when you come in arguing for GFCI tech I would expect you to do that. Why should one chose to use GFCI tech?

Could you please stop this. Erin and I already offered you solutions to your problem and you are free to not use gfci protection if that’s what you choose

 

[Sean Clark]

I'm curious about your experience with this... I have most of my equipment plugged in to GFCI adapters and have never had one randomly trip. I do test them on a rotating schedule, and in 7 years, none have shown to be faulty.

Ill send you a demonstration video.

 

[SoggyNW]

Very cool, I'm a residential electrician and I hope you don't mind me picking your brain on a thing.

AFCI vs GFCI. I understand that they are "watching" for different things. I can see where an AFCI will trip in situations where a GFCI won't, but I can't think up or find any situation where a GFCI would trip that an AFCI also wouldn't. And I get that they are doing different things but doesn't an AFCI make the GFCI redundant?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Ill send you a demonstration video.

That's ok, I am just curious if your experience is typical since it's the opposite of mine. There may be something at play that makes your situation unique. Or maybe I've just been lucky.

 

[Sean Clark]

Could you please stop this. Erin and I already offered you solutions to your problem and you are free to not use gfci protection if that’s what you choose

Stop what?

 

[theMeat]

Very cool, I'm a residential electrician and I hope you don't mind me picking your brain on a thing.

AFCI vs GFCI. I understand that they are "watching" for different things. I can see where an AFCI will trip in situations where a GFCI won't, but I can't think up or find any situation where a GFCI would trip that an AFCI also wouldn't. And I get that they are doing different things but doesn't an AFCI make the GFCI redundant?

Don’t want to answer for Steve and if I’m wrong please correct me…
Gfci is better at protecting from shock because it measures outgoing and returning current and trips when it senses a difference. Arci trips when it senses a loss in power to anything. So could imagine a scenario where arc between hot and neutral before the gfci outlet wouldn’t necessarily trip the gfci but cause a fire, where an arci would have tripped.

 

[Steve Zee]

Very cool, I'm a residential electrician and I hope you don't mind me picking your brain on a thing.

AFCI vs GFCI. I understand that they are "watching" for different things. I can see where an AFCI will trip in situations where a GFCI won't, but I can't think up or find any situation where a GFCI would trip that an AFCI also wouldn't. And I get that they are doing different things but doesn't an AFCI make the GFCI redundant?

Sorry, it’s late where I am. I have to admit it’s concerning to hear a residential electrician ask this question. You certainly must know the difference since code requirements are very different.
They are completely different and no, it is not redundant because they have completely different functions. Simplified, GFCI’s are detecting a difference in current between the hot and neutral, if this difference becomes dangerous ( around 5mA but before 6mA) the the circuit is interrupted. AFCI’s are designed to detect arc flash within a circuit. It does this by reading or monitoring the “noise” created when arcing occurs. Because our current (North America) operates at 60 hertz is possible to compare the harmonics on a circuit and detect a difference. The two devices couldn’t be more different. However, it’s possible one day that (wink wink) someone will come up with a combination device to do both.