A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[Brew12]

Very true, but TTM doesn't work for velvet as far as I am aware and it also doesn't help with flukes etc.

While CI is probably the most common parasite in the marine hobby, I have been seeing way more velvet outbreaks (including in my own tank) in the last year or so compared to 5 or so years ago when I started in this hobby. And what I interpreted the article to be about was all common parasites and diseases that people commonly treat prophetically.

TTM can also be used for velvet, but it the transfers need to be done more frequently to compensate for the faster life cycle.

 

[nereefpat]

TTM itself doesn't treat for velvet or flukes, but prazi can be combined to treat for flukes. And after 7-12 days of tank transfers, you would know if the fish has velvet.

 

[FlyPenFly]

TTM sounds pretty stressful for the fish.

 

[BeejReef]

Really well written article.

ty for taking the time

 

[McPuff]

Very true, but TTM doesn't work for velvet as far as I am aware and it also doesn't help with flukes etc.

While CI is probably the most common parasite in the marine hobby, I have been seeing way more velvet outbreaks (including in my own tank) in the last year or so compared to 5 or so years ago when I started in this hobby. And what I interpreted the article to be about was all common parasites and diseases that people commonly treat prophetically.

Yes, very true. I meant it only as a treatment for ich. For me, TTM is the first thing, then I do a 4-5 week QT with prazipro, metronidazole, kanaplex and lots of observation of course.

 

[McPuff]

TTM sounds pretty stressful for the fish.

I thought so too before I started to do it. Doesn't seem to bother them too much though. After I switch fish to the new tank, I feed them almost immediately. Most of the fish will eat right away and I take that to mean they are comfortable enough. They are probably a little stressed but much of it seems to be due to the sterile environment itself. When I switch them to QT they begin to act much more "natural."

 

[TheHarold]

My strategy is to buy high quality fish, from Live Aquaria Divers Den. Then I add them directly to the display, and feed a variety of foods 3x a day. It’s worked well so far.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

TTM can also be used for velvet, but it the transfers need to be done more frequently to compensate for the faster life cycle.

Cool, I didn't know that thanks. Humble's post on velvet specifies that it doesn't work but it is quite a few years old now (I read it back when I first found out I had velvet)

TTM itself doesn't treat for velvet or flukes, but prazi can be combined to treat for flukes. And after 7-12 days of tank transfers, you would know if the fish has velvet.

Would you know after 7-12 days though? Would you risk your tank on it if there was a likely chance the fish may of had velvet but still doesn't show signs after 7-12 days?

I have velvet in my display and have had it for 2 years now (if not much longer without me knowing). Last death from velvet was about a year ago now but I last saw signs of it for a couple of days just over 2 months ago when I added a fox face and my bristle tooth got stressed out. There has only been 2 occasions I know of in the last year where my bristle tooth got stressed and both times velvet popped up straight away for a day or two before disappearing again.

But more importantly none of the other fish show signs quickly, even if they get a bit stressed. So I don't think that you can be 100% sure that every fish would show signs of velvet during the 2 weeks of a TTM even if it does stress them out a little.

 

[ReefWithCare]

Yes - nitrofurazone is classed as a carcinogen - at least in EU - and forbidden to use in food production. I saw the medicines at the manefactur - is not many of them you can get without a prescription here in Sweden (or EU).

Sincerely Lasse

Hi Lasse,

What do Europeans use to treat fish disease and what QT procedures do they follow?

 

[nereefpat]

Would you know after 7-12 days though? Would you risk your tank on it if there was a likely chance the fish may of had velvet but still doesn't show signs after 7-12 days?

I have velvet in my display and have had it for 2 years now (if not much longer without me knowing). Last death from velvet was about a year ago now but I last saw signs of it for a couple of days just over 2 months ago when I added a fox face and my bristle tooth got stressed out. There has only been 2 occasions I know of in the last year where my bristle tooth got stressed and both times velvet popped up straight away for a day or two before disappearing again.

But more importantly none of the other fish show signs quickly, even if they get a bit stressed. So I don't think that you can be 100% sure that every fish would show signs of velvet during the 2 weeks of a TTM even if it does stress them out a little.

I would be confident, yes. If I saw no velvet spots (trophonts?) and no behavioral evidence of velvet during a week or two of TTM/observation, then I wouldn't be concerned about velvet. Velvet is really virulant, and its life cycle is fast.

Your tank sounds like a strange case of velvet. You sure it isn't ich?

 

[Brew12]

Hi Lasse,

What do Europeans use to treat fish disease and what QT procedures do they follow?

I hope Lasse answers separately, but much of what I put in my article is taken from reefers I respect from Europe. They have had a long experience with access to the common medications in the US. Most will treat acute cases of fish with medications if it is called for, but prefer not to. My impression is that they concentrate on keeping a healthy environment with quality feeding and don't focus on any singular diseases. The fish need little external help when kept in these conditions.

 

[BryanD]

I haven't treated a saltwater fish in over 15 years. I used to do the prophylactic garbage with my freshwater fish with little or no visible benefit, and some dying that really didn't look like they should have, so I stopped doing it with them like 25 years ago. When I began keeping salt at around the same time decided I wasn't going to do the chemical baths by default, so 30 days in quarantine, then into DT. So far I've only bought fish I could see in person, and all but one of my fish is from (GASP!) PetCo. Put them in quarantine, raise temp to 80-85, give them any and all foods until you find the one they love and feed them all they want. 30 days later, you have a healthy fish that hasn't been swimming in chemicals who is fat enough to hold their own in the DT until they figure it out.

Now if I bought some fish online not sure what I'd do, but I think I'd stick with the same regime unless something visible showed up. Then I'd have to decide whether to medicate or not. I do have some copper treatment as backup, but bought it so long ago not sure if its still good or not. But I do not like putting them into chemicals by default.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I would love to run an observation-only QT. I’ve actually attempted to do so on several occasions. But, how to handle the Typhoid Mary fish?

I’m about 99% sure my initial bout of crypto in my current display tank was brought in by a mandarin fish. It was the only fish I had not QT’d and treated prophylactically. Honestly, due to the delicate feeding habits, initially, I was afraid to QT her.

The mandarin never had symptoms. Even when the outbreak was in full swing.

When I decided to pull all of the fish for treatment and run my tank fallow, she went into her own tank and sat untreated through the entire ordeal. It took me some time to procure CP to treat her, so she was there much longer than the other fish. Finally, I was able to treat her and transfer her back into my main tank.

That fish never had a single spot, never seemed bothered by the ich, and if I had run an observational-only QT... she would not have been treated. But, that didn’t stop her from bringing parasites into my tank.

So, what if it was velvet instead of ich? What about the people who go years without quarantine and then all of a sudden loose a whole tank of seemingly healthy and happy fish? There was a thread not too long ago where someone lost fish they had for nearly 10 years to a newcomer with velvet!?

How do you prevent these full tank wipe-outs if fish can carry parasites without obvious symptoms? My mandarin is not the first fish to be a carrier. Certain wrasses, rabbitfish, and other hearty fish with thick slime coats have also been known to carry parasites with little or no symptoms.

But, what happens when they are introduced to a tank with acanthurus tangs, angels, and butterflyfish?

Or brook? Many fish can carry brook with no symptoms... but introduce them to a tank with clownfish, and what happens? Uronema, with chromis and anthias?

I understand the concerns with prophylactic treatment... but I feel like there is no really good way to protect my tank otherwise. My attempts at passive QT have all failed eventually. Besides the crypto mentioned above, I’ve also had velvet encounters twice... neither ended well.

Until I can find another method to be SURE a new addition won’t take out my entire community with an unseen pathogen... I’m just not sure I see an alternative?

 

[MaccaPopEye]

I would be confident, yes. If I saw no velvet spots (trophonts?) and no behavioral evidence of velvet during a week or two of TTM/observation, then I wouldn't be concerned about velvet. Velvet is really virulant, and its life cycle is fast.

Your tank sounds like a strange case of velvet. You sure it isn't ich?

The lifecycle is super fast, but sometimes very healthy fish just act as carriers. They can resist the parasite enough to not get overwhelmed and show visible symptoms, but they still carry the parasite and can infect your DT (just like with CI, but with the TTM you can ensure they are CI free).

But I wish you the best of luck

As for if what I have is velvet or CI, I'm as sure as I can be without looking at the tomites under a microscope

I've got CI in my tank as well, but I've only ever seen it briefly on stone new additions.

What makes me think I have velvet is when I had a major outbreak it was just over a week from the first signs of a sick fish until 90% were dead. It didn't look like CI but more like the fish had been dusted with sugar or flour, the tomites were so small it's hard to even notice them until a fish was covered. And the other symptom that aparently doesn't present with CI is my tangs would spend most of the day swimming into the flow of my power heads.

There are quite a few others on R2R who beleive they have tanks running that likely have velvet in them. But of course there is always a chance it's not velvet.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

For 12 years I never QT any of my fish, and it worked great until I had a velvet outbreak wipe out every fish in my tank except my leopard wrasse.

Going forward I am going to try to implement a TTM method but for treating Velvet and Ich (using transfers every 24-46 hours, under the 48h window for velvet to reproduce). I was going to prophylactically use General Cure, and Ruby Reef Rally primarily (maybe some Metroplex if needed). I am probably going to pass on the prophylactic treating of the General Cure, unless I suspect flukes. I may still use Rally prophylactically, but between a more frequent TTM (24-46 hours) and the a few fresh water dips I should be able to treat Ich, Velvet, Uronema marinum, Brook, Flukes (maybe, and Black Ich. I can keep some ABX and General Cure on hand in case I notice any white stringy poop, persistent flukes, or other issues.

I think finding ways to successfully treat common fish parasites and issues without the use of meds or chemicals is ideal.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I think running a hyposaline QT seems to be a much less stressful method than TTM imo. You just need a refractometer, calibration fluid, and a decent ATO.

Seems a lot easier than matching TTM for different fish which might be at different stages of different diseases.

 

[erk]

I typically refrain from adding my comments on the subject of QT and fish treatments, but I guess I'll add my input this one time. Not that it matters.

I don't QT. From the amount of threads I see on QT, it would appear the likelihood of fish survival is pretty low when thrown into a QT. I attribute this to stress. The way I see it, stress is the number one killer for all these fish. Stress is the reason they get infected in the first place. Stress is the reason they don't eat. I'm just stressed talking about stress.

My cure for stress is to reduce or remove causes of stress. That means food. Lots of food. Like going home for Thanksgiving or Christmas. Fatten that little fishy up real good. Put them in a comfortable environment. Typically they sit in an acclimation box inside the DT so they don't get hounded. That causes stress. Like having an overbearing family member quiz you non-stop during holiday dinners. How can you eat and reduce stress in that scenario?! Medication doesn't reduce stress. How many people actually like to take medication? I mean, antibiotics make me feel terrible. Can you imagine if someone snagged you up, flew you half way around the world without feeding you the whole time, then getting thrown into a barren cell with a couple tubes and subjected to copious amounts of medication for things you may or may not have. Sounds like a horror flick to me.

I've purchased so many of my fish from Petco. Many with ich or something that looks like ich. If I'm going to lose a new fish, it is typically in the first 3 days. The way I see it, QT or not, those fish probably were already dying before I tried to save them. If they survive the first 3 days, they catch onto what I'm feeding and quickly recover. The ich spots disappear. They become more robust in appearance and attitude. I don't try to change what I'm feeding around. I feed a mix of pellets foods, mostly Hikari, nori, and LRS fish frenzy. There is also the plethora of algae on the rocks, glass, every surface for them to pick thru if they want.

I've lost my fair share of fish getting to this point. I'm sure I won't continue to lose fish as long as they keep coming in such rough shape. But with my method, I'm losing less than I did when I first started. I have treated the tank with praziquantel before. Only once. And that was for internal parasites. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite, but the way I see it, these drugs are for emergencies. That was a emergency. When you use these drugs constantly, you aren't treating the problem, you are delaying the inevitable.

Cure the stress, cure the fish. That's my two cents.

 

[MnFish1]

This is a great article. 2 comments - I think high flow is critical in the management of CI especially. The reason: Fish tend to 'sleep' in the same area each night. The CI comes off the fish between 2 and 5 AM. they usually encyst 'locally' - when the fish keeps coming back to this area day after day - when they hatch (again in the early AM) the concentration of theronts is much higher in that area -leading to re-infection. Its thought that only 5-20% of theronts ever reach a host - so the more flow (and as you said - less fish) - the less likely for fish to be infected in the short period the theront is alive.

There is only 1 article out there from 2000 about a strain of velvet that was resistant to Copper - I spoke to the author - and they had to use Chloroquine to get rid of it. She was not aware of any further episodes (it occurred in one LFS only). She is going to get back as to whether they are seeing this. Resistance to Copper SHOULD be much more difficult than resistance to Antibiotics.

 

[MnFish1]

I think running a hyposaline QT seems to be a much less stressful method than TTM imo. You just need a refractometer, calibration fluid, and a decent ATO.

Seems a lot easier than matching TTM for different fish which might be at different stages of different diseases.

Hyposalinity unfortunately doesn't help with velvet - or?

 

[MnFish1]

How is this any different than parasite strains being exposed to treatments over and over again at wholesalers as the fish pass through the system? There are wholesalers who have run copper in their systems for years which would be thousands of generations of parasites. These fish exposed to these parasites then get shipped to LFS's and hobbyists all over the country. I would argue the likelyhood of a parasite developing a resistance has more to do with the conditions the parasite is exposed to than where the fish is bred.

The difference is huge (IMHO). The reason that bacteria become 'resistant' is more statistical than anything - i.e. the doubling time for E coli is 20 minutes. In about a day - 1 E coli cell would result in 19 followed by 21 zeros) E coli cells when you consider that each of the new cells can also divide the potential for 1 or 2 cells to become resistant to a low concentration of an antibiotic is HUGE. CI - for example is much much more slow growing - and thus is far less likely to develop resistance. Velvet has a more quick doubling time - but even with that there is only 1 report of resistance to copper treatment in the literature - and its never been repeated (and the author was not sure it was 'true resistance' - but called it that nonetheless.

Question - Why would a 'wholesaler' run sub-lethal copper (by definition it isn't working) except by mistake. They are thus risking ALL of their livestock to save the cost of a 'little copper'. I hate to say I don't believe the oft repeated myth that this is 'widespread' - if it was lots of fish would have visible CI on them or at least be sick. I know you'll disagree with this last point - but that's ok