A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[Lasse]

I think keeping marine tanks is easier than freshwater tanks. I have been keeping fish since 1985 so I have some experience.
I am going to start replying to the new people posts to start with guppies and mollies. Learn to keep fish first.

+100 but I started in full speed 1973 - 74

But this is from 1963-4

Sincerely Lasse

 

[norfolkgarden]

Probably not luck. Every time luck has had a chance it has stabbed me in the back.

I think it is flow. How well do you think parasites can swim? I have no idea. I always run high flow because I think it keeps all the bad looking goo and mats people complain about all the time under control. I don't turn it down at night either.
That new tank brown stuff. I ended it by putting a PP-15 in a 56 gallon tank running full blast for a few days. Broke it right up.
Many people here have all kinds of pumps in their tank but the programs they run produce way under rated flow. 2 gyre pumps on a controller in alternating gyre mode at 40% isn't much flow. They worry the sand will blow around. I use the 3-5mm stuff mixed with crushed coral. It doesn't blow around.
I have cyano. I am at the point where I can make it come and go by adjusting my light 5% and my flow 10%. Subtle changes that make a difference in hours. I am finding there are some fine lines that make or break how your tank is doing. I didn't know that before. I do now.

Perhaps it doesn't matter how many parasites are in your tank if only 2 or 3 can make it to a fish at any one time because of the current. Also the ones that do come out get swept to the things that eat them like the gorgonians.
You stress the tank doing maintenance or something. The pumps are off and the fish hide in the rocks and crevices. The next day you have ich.
This happened to me recently when the power was out. No flow for 10 hours. A few of my fish had spots the next day, especially the blue tang. I did nothing and they went away over the next 3 days.
In the sea the pumps are never off. Swim or die.

Early morning thoughts. @norfolkgarden liked one of my posts and made it pop up. I had been thinking on this for a few days. Sorry my brain is like lead some days.
I do pretty much the opposite of most things stated on here. I don't wait and push my tanks as hard as possible to get them where I want to go. I use additives like Vibrant and Nopox when needed and them stop them. I do water changes. Frequent big ones sometimes like 50-90% every 2 or 3 days if I think I need to. I don't do regular testing once a tank is going.
I broke my tank down yesterday, drained the water and moved it to make room for the new one. Today it looks the same. No damage done.
I find fish to be tough hardy animals if given clean water and fed well.

Lol, still on post 310 or so. Working forward and saw your alert.

Does it clarify a bit at some point?

 

[WVNed]

Lol, still on post 310 or so. Working forward and saw your alert.

Does it clarify a bit at some point?

I didn't think so.
I admit I didn't read the whole thing. I got upset for a bit when it was implied that we don't care so we don't QT. I have learned to keep my mouth shut.
There are two diametrically opposed points of view. They get close when they start talking about a new husbandry forum. I could go for that.
They need to learn to keep fish with some guppies or something. Then move up.
I keep waiting for the day I will have to eat my words but it hasn't come yet.

 

[Paul B]

Cool picture Lasse.

Me and Noah started with fish in about 55 or so. The same year they invented rocks.

I only had time for my fish when I wasn't out entertaining the Ladies.

 

[norfolkgarden]

On the subject of
"What will we do when we don't have access to meds..."

 

[Brew12]

Well guys, there won't be a new forum section being created but we will start making the information more readily available. For instance, here is a new sticky on fish nutrition in the fish disease section.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nutrition-and-fish-health.603925/

I'm looking for more links to add if you guys have any recommendations.

 

[MnFish1]

Well guys, there won't be a new forum section being created but we will start making the information more readily available. For instance, here is a new sticky on fish nutrition in the fish disease section.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nutrition-and-fish-health.603925/

I'm looking for more links to add if you guys have any recommendations.

I think this is good - but there was a lot more to this discussion than just 'nutrition' - there is 'filtration, ozone, nutrition, flow, stocking density, Observation QT (vs chemotherapy), type of fish used, etc. So where would be the proper place to discuss 'those things'. I guess I would rather just keep discussing on the disease forum (or the reef discussion forum) rather than trying to separate all of those things into individual threads?

 

[Brew12]

I think this is good - but there was a lot more to this discussion than just 'nutrition' - there is 'filtration, ozone, nutrition, flow, stocking density, Observation QT (vs chemotherapy), type of fish used, etc. So where would be the proper place to discuss 'those things'. I guess I would rather just keep discussing on the disease forum (or the reef discussion forum) rather than trying to separate all of those things into individual threads?

Those will all be discussed here in the fish disease section. Individual threads for those discussions has a lot of benefits imo. The only reason I haven't posted more stickies along these lines is the lack of, or my inability to find, quality posts. If you want to take the time to write a comprehensive article on one of those issues I'll be glad to link it in a sticky.

 

[Lasse]

Here is a fantastic link

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mortie31]

Here is a fantastic link

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks Lasse I like my science in diagrams, so I pinched this from the article you posted. Have you any experience using β-glucan (Macrogard®) as if I’ve read this article correctly it looks promising in boosting immunity, not sure if it’s directly applicable to our needs but seems to show that immune response can be modified by diet/ supplementation.

 

[Lasse]

No I haven't experiences with that.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mortie31]

Here’s another study in turbot using B- glucan
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1050464815302321

 

[Mortie31]

A link to Macrogard
https://orffa.com/products/macrogard/
It’s used in fisheries in Scandinavia @Lasse

 

[Lasse]

When I´m in a discussion with anyone – I always try to update myself with help of Google because things change rather fast nowadays. In a recent thread - disease free and pathogen free was used in an interchangeable context. I have normally no problems to have these two things divided from each other but suddenly I realize that this is not the norm in the reefing community – for many people – these two words are the same. I Google in order to see if there was any good explanation for this distinction out there and found these two links

1. Definition of disease

2. Definition of a pathogen

Especially the link about pathogens is very good and easy to understand

For me it is clear that you can have disease free fish and aquariums but you never can talk about pathogen free fish and aquariums because the vast majority of fish-pathogens are opportunistic pathogens (I prefer to use the word facultative pathogens). Some sources mention figures as high as 90 – 95 %


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

When I´m in a discussion with anyone – I always try to update myself with help of Google because things change rather fast nowadays. In a recent thread - disease free and pathogen free was used in an interchangeable context. I have normally no problems to have these two things divided from each other but suddenly I realize that this is not the norm in the reefing community – for many people – these two words are the same. I Google in order to see if there was any good explanation for this distinction out there and found these two links

1. Definition of disease

2. Definition of a pathogen

Especially the link about pathogens is very good and easy to understand

For me it is clear that you can have disease free fish and aquariums but you never can talk about pathogen free fish and aquariums because the vast majority of fish-pathogens are opportunistic pathogens (I prefer to use the word facultative pathogens). Some sources mention figures as high as 90 – 95 %


Sincerely Lasse

This is the motivation for another article I'm working on. Trying to define what exactly is a healthy fish. I didn't think it would prove to be as difficult as it is.

 

[Paul B]

This is the motivation for another article I'm working on. Trying to define what exactly is a healthy fish. I didn't think it would prove to be as difficult as it is.

IMO a spawning fish is a healthy fish. Fish have to be in their best health to spawn.

 

[Mortie31]

When I´m in a discussion with anyone – I always try to update myself with help of Google because things change rather fast nowadays. In a recent thread - disease free and pathogen free was used in an interchangeable context. I have normally no problems to have these two things divided from each other but suddenly I realize that this is not the norm in the reefing community – for many people – these two words are the same. I Google in order to see if there was any good explanation for this distinction out there and found these two links

1. Definition of disease

2. Definition of a pathogen

Especially the link about pathogens is very good and easy to understand

For me it is clear that you can have disease free fish and aquariums but you never can talk about pathogen free fish and aquariums because the vast majority of fish-pathogens are opportunistic pathogens (I prefer to use the word facultative pathogens). Some sources mention figures as high as 90 – 95 %


Sincerely Lasse

A quote from the above link on pathogens has got me thinking... If this true for CI and velvet as so @Paul B @Lasse and several others have been arguing? Then what constitutes a susceptible host? Several people on here myself included who observe our fish at renowned LFS and purchase carefully seem to suffer less disease than others who mailorder etc... how conclusive do you feel this link between health and susceptibility is?
“But surely in the case of immunity the pathogen is still a pathogen, it's just that immunity prevents you from getting sick, right?
Not really. The question implies that the ability to cause damage or disease is an inherent microbial property, but in fact these characteristics only exist in the context of a susceptible host. Therefore, when a host is immune, pathogenicity is not expressed. What is important to recognize is that pathogenicity and virulence are microbial properties that can only be expressed in a susceptible host.”

 

[Brew12]

A quote from the above link on pathogens has got me thinking... If this true for CI and velvet as so @Paul B @Lasse and several others have been arguing? Then what constitutes a susceptible host? Several people on here myself included who observe our fish at renowned LFS and purchase carefully seem to suffer less disease than others who mailorder etc... how conclusive do you feel this link between health and susceptibility is?
But surely in the case of immunity the pathogen is still a pathogen, it's just that immunity prevents you from getting sick, right?
Not really. The question implies that the ability to cause damage or disease is an inherent microbial property, but in fact these characteristics only exist in the context of a susceptible host. Therefore, when a host is immune, pathogenicity is not expressed. What is important to recognize is that pathogenicity and virulence are microbial properties that can only be expressed in a susceptible host.

Odds are the LFS receive the fish from the same wholesalers that people online use here in the states. I know my LFS gets most of their stock from Quality Marine, which is also where people who order through Live Aquaria get their fish from.

Isn't a pathogen still a pathogen to a potentially susceptible host even if it handled by it's immune system? When the immune system fails the pathogen becomes a disease, right? I might have to go through and read it again...

 

[Mortie31]

Odds are the LFS receive the fish from the same wholesalers that people online use here in the states. I know my LFS gets most of their stock from Quality Marine, which is also where people who order through Live Aquaria get their fish from.

Isn't a pathogen still a pathogen to a potentially susceptible host even if it handled by it's immune system? When the immune system fails the pathogen becomes a disease, right? I might have to go through and read it again...

I’m in the UK and most of our LFS are supplied by a few wholesalers others import directly, but as previously discussed disease in Europe does appear to be less, potentially due to regulation around cleaning systems etc...
Yes I read it that way a compromised immune system can lead to disease break through, so it’s crucial to keep the immune system healthy and at optimal performance, so if this is true chemicals that affect the immune system should be avoided.. and foods, environment etc that contribute to a healthy immune system should be optimised... which seems to be the universal position of most who don’t advocate chemopropylaxis.. @Paul B and @Lasse have I surmised this correctly in my naive non scientist way or missed something?

 

[MnFish1]

Odds are the LFS receive the fish from the same wholesalers that people online use here in the states. I know my LFS gets most of their stock from Quality Marine, which is also where people who order through Live Aquaria get their fish from.

Isn't a pathogen still a pathogen to a potentially susceptible host even if it handled by it's immune system? When the immune system fails the pathogen becomes a disease, right? I might have to go through and read it again...

Salmonella enterica serotype Typhi (which causes typhoid fever) is a pathogen. If you have been vaccinated against this bacteria - and you eat that bacteria - you won't get sick - but if they did a stool culture the 'pathogen' Salmonella enterica serotype Typhi may be in your stool - its still a pathogen for everyone else.

CI is a pathogen. If a fish is immune - and only gets one or 2 spots a year - its still a pathogen.

HOWEVER. in the case above - If I have been vaccinated against typhoid - I will likely not get the 'DISEASE' typhoid fever even if exposed.

Likewise - if a fish is 'immune' to oodinium cilates they will not get the disease 'velvet'