A question to all reefers!

[twilliard]

Every time we feed our tanks we are introducing organics.
These organics break down into what most dont like.
No3 and po4
So what is the first line of defense to avoid this breakdown?

 

[Greenstreet.1]

I Say skimming or not over feeding

 

[NanaReefer]

Avoid the breakdown? Don't really think it can be avoided but we can minimize it. Removing excess by any means available. 1st Feeding proper amounts thus limiting waste 2nd line of defense would be a CUC.

 

[twilliard]

Avoid the breakdown? Don't really think it can be avoided but we can mi

Po4 is tricky. Its like a ghost in the night.
If a person truly understood where it comes from they can sleep at night.

 

[chefjpaul]

http://www.reefedition.com/phosphate-in-the-reef-aquarium-by-randy-holmes-farley/

 

[chefjpaul]

Avoid the breakdown? Don't really think it can be avoided but we can minimize it. Removing excess by any means available. 1st Feeding proper amounts thus limiting waste 2nd line of defense would be a CUC.

CUC produces waste.
I have the most minimal CUC & heavy bio load and no po4 issues.

Skimming & balance / Ratio of PO4 - NO3 via probiotics

 

[chefjpaul]

CUC produces waste.
I have the most minimal CUC & heavy bio load and no po4 issues.

Skimming & balance / Ratio of PO4 - NO3 via probiotics

Or
Carbon source & bacteria dose

 

[twilliard]

http://www.reefedition.com/phosphate-in-the-reef-aquarium-by-randy-holmes-farley/

Thanks!
A lot of newer people dont know those links exist.
This is why I started this. To help others

 

[Russ265]

CUC produces waste.
I have the most minimal CUC & heavy bio load and no po4 issues.

Skimming & balance / Ratio of PO4 - NO3 via probiotics

i thought i was the only one who thought cuc produces waste. I have maybe 50 astrea snails... that is all.

If there is one thing I have learned over the years i spent as an electrician is to never guess... it kills

ha! got me.
16:1 redfield

Every time we feed our tanks we are introducing organics.
These organics break down into what most dont like.
No3 and po4
So what is the first line of defense to avoid this breakdown?

GAC in a reactor is my first and only line of defense. followed by detectable nitrate levels to burn po4 down to near nothing. Havent used gfo for a year.

if SHTF.... i can throw in gfo

 

[rayn]

Now I have never heard of nitrate "burning" down po4 before.

Isn't there po4 added by some rock?

 

[Russ265]

Now I have never heard of nitrate "burning" down po4 before.

Isn't there po4 added by some rock?

so. on my old 220 id aways use gfo, and i could never get below .2 ppm po4 because i was carbon dosing and using biopellets. gfo was doing all the heavy lifting but would exhaust before 0 was achieved.

because algae, zoox, and the like generally consume nitrate and po4 for photosynthesis (they need both) in a 16:1 manner, without nitrate.... po4 couldnt be used and crept up.

adding detectable nitrate allowed photosynthesis to grab the remaining phosphate. ahhhh mother nature. how i love you

when im bored and want to clean my glass ill add this.

 

[Marquiseo]

An example of how much waste CUC can generate. Pic is from my old 10gal which had a few snails and hermits.

 

[Diesel]

Po4 is tricky. Its like a ghost in the night.
If a person truly understood where it comes from they can sleep at night.

That's exactly the point, you need to understand where it comes from.
Not walking the edge is a plus here.
BIG question is how do you know?

I feed 4 meals a day and sometimes I just skip a day as on the reef it ain't a party every day either.
I don't run any removers and do a WC twice a week of just 10 gallon each on a 202 gallon tank.
My Po4 was.................. 4 weeks ago 0.03, to low in my dictionary but I'm more focused on No3 which is not the question here.
How I do it?
Well............. I run a lifereef skimmer and it works great for me.
Did the test on two other skimmer I had that I won in some shows on raffles an they just ain't cutting it for me.
Here's what I feed Nori 1 sheet a day, 3 cubes of frozen brine and larry frozen food mix, if I have live food (black worms or/and brine shrimp and ghost shrimp I alternate and drop the frozen food.
My livestock isn't that large and I call it under stocked for the size of my tank.

 

[ksfulk]

I havent seen many removal methods!

Aside from whats been mentioned, I see there is a distinct lack of mention of filter socks/pads. Removal of the excess food/material thats been introduced is a great method to prevent the breakdown of those "extra" foods into PO4 and other unwanted nutrients. This, however, must be coupled with active maintenance of the socks/pads to ensure that the physical removal from the system is done, and the socks are simply sitting in the sump for weeks at a time - still effectively capturing the excess, but not removing it from the system. I think its a pretty big split on people using/not using socks these days, depending on the maturity of the reef and the reefer, but for the beginner and the overfeeder, nothing beats a good method of physical removal of excess.

 

[TheEngineer]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned water source as a primary driver. I don't have hard numbers but I'd be willing to bet a large percentage can be attributed there. Test your RODI water for phosphates after it sits in a bucket for a bit. People who've used the same buckets long enough will see surprising levels of phosphate after the water sits for a short while.

And no one has mentioned leaching from love rock either.

 

[twilliard]

IMO leaching rock is because of a person over feeding for many years.

 

[Diesel]

I

Aside from whats been mentioned, I see there is a distinct lack of mention of filter socks/pads. Removal of the excess food/material thats been introduced is a great method to prevent the breakdown of those "extra" foods into PO4 and other unwanted nutrients. This, however, must be coupled with active maintenance of the socks/pads to ensure that the physical removal from the system is done, and the socks are simply sitting in the sump for weeks at a time - still effectively capturing the excess, but not removing it from the system. I think its a pretty big split on people using/not using socks these days, depending on the maturity of the reef and the reefer, but for the beginner and the overfeeder, nothing beats a good method of physical removal of excess.

You're right, socks would make a difference.
I do use socks but I have cut holes in all my socks as if I run full socks without holes for two weeks my Po4 is to low close to nothing.
I know that would be never possible but my SPS will slowly turn a lighter color due to a lack of nutrients.
When I run the socks with holes I don't see it happening.
That said of course this works for me and for other it might have a different results.
Try to work out what works for you and don't be like me that everything is perfect

 

[brownsalt92]

An example of how much waste CUC can generate. Pic is from my old 10gal which had a few snails and hermits.

Is that algea on the bottom?

 

[watchguy123]

Well if I understand correctly, @Russ265 describes his first line of treatment is GAC and @Diesel attributes his skimmer. It's fascinating because I don't know that either directly remove phosphates, they work on organics. I'm not sure if the organics specifically lead to excess phosphate.

I have always thought that bacteria remove the majority of nitrates and phosphates (both labeled as nutrients). You don't need carbon dosing for the bacteria to thrive. Live rock, dsb, things like siporax are areas where bacteria thrive. Lots of organics come from coral and invertebrates. Fish give poop. Socks, water changes, skimmers and algae all aid in nutrient export as well as bacteria. Food absolutely breaks down eaten or not, into carbon, nitrates and phosphates. It is certainly more complicated than I can delineate.

I guess I am surprised to think of GAC removing phosphates. And I thought virtually all skimmers, regardless of brand, removed about 30% of DOC assuming it is dialed in.

I do agree that you need bacteria and you need some sort of balance between nitrates and phosphates although I don't believe the redfield ratio is necessarily the correct ratio in ocean or reef tank water. It is interesting that we have no ability to evaluate the absolute numbers or concentration of bacteria or even strains of bacteria in our tanks.

@twilliard you asked a simple question. And yet the reef tanks we spend so much time, energy and expense on; we think we know what takes place inside of them until someone asks a basic question.

 

[watchguy123]

Is that algea on the bottom?

No that is snail and crab poop. It collects and blows around on a sand free bottom until siphoned out.