Absolutely Stumped- Fish and Inverts Dying

[Shwammy77]

Any ideas of what is going on with our tank? We have talked to friends and the people at our LSF that we trust and everyone is struggling to figure out what is happening. Don't know if these things are related or not, but here it goes...

Our tank has been up and running for two months. The tank is a Red Sea Max e260 with sump, total of 69 gallons. We used dry rock that had been in a tank over a year ago and we bleach treated it for 8 days, let it air dry, then tested again to ensure that there was no bleach and chlorine left before did the rock scape. We added Dr. Tim's and did a fishless cycle before adding fish. Also should add that we have an RO system and mix our own saltwater in a Brute trash can.

First inhabitants were two clowns and a pintail fairy wrasse. They were very happy. A week and a half later, all the parameters were stable, added a fire shrimp and starry blenny. Everyone happy, parameters all stable (Ammonia still 0, nitrates between 5-10, PH between 8-8.2, salinity 1.026). A week later, we started to have some stronger algae growth, and added a clean up crew- 2 conchs, 4 narcissus snails, 5 small hermit crabs, 1 large hermit crab, 1 tuxedo urchin, 1 peppermint shrimp. Everyone happy and healthy except for a conch that died the first night.

Three days later, on December 16, we notice sand like spots on the wrasse. Do research, go to LSF, confirm that it is most likely ich. Wrasse is still eating, just has a few spots. Everyone else in the tank is eating and healthy. LSF recommends adding metroplex and focus to food to treat ich. After completing online research too, we decide to start using the metroplex and focus in the food on December 17th.

For the next week, everyone is eating and happy. No ich spots on the other fish. Spots on the wrasse increase, but then start to decrease. Wake up on December 25, starry blenny is dead on the bottom of the tank. No visible spots or marks. Everyone else is acting normally and eating normally. In the evening, the clownfish look like they are covered in white spots and one starts swimming a little bit with its head down, kinda like it's drunk. Then swims normally for a bit. By the morning of December 26, both clownfish dead at the bottom of the tank. Wrasse is swimming normally. We attribute the fish death to ich (ruled out velvet because there was no swimming into the powerhead streams or shyness from lights). Went to the LSF, they agreed mostly ich, but thought it was strange that the fish were eating and acting normally up until a few hours before they died. This is where it gets weird...

December 27th, large hermit crab dies, 1 small hermit crab dies. December 28th, tuxedo urchin that was eating away, had all his feelers out the night before, is found dead at the bottom of the tank with his beak and part of his innards laying on the sand next to him. All parameters are still reading the same as above. Took water to our LSF in case our tests were wrong. Their tests showed the same as ours. LSF tested for copper and found a .1 copper reading in our tank. No idea where it could be coming from. There is no metal in the tank, nothing to rust. Checked the flipper just in case it cracked. Nothing. Ran a magnet around the bottom of the sand and over the rocks. Nothing.

Are all these deaths related? What could be going on? Could we have two different simultaneous issues? Where is the copper coming from? Ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. (And to answer the question, no, we don't QT. We are new to the hobby and that is above our knowledge threshold)

As of right now, wrasse has no spots now, is swimming around fine and has a great appetite. We feed Hikari Spiralina and Hikari Mysis frozen food. Since December 24, we have been adding Selcon to increase the fish's immune system.

Sorry for the long post, but wanted to add as much detail as possible! It's very disheartening to have so many things go wrong.

 

[shootingstar_reef]

how did you test for the bleach?

 

[Shwammy77]

It was a chlorine test. We air dried the rock. Then put it back in RO water for 24 hours, then tested with the Insta-Test Chlorine test strips.

 

[phatduckk]

the bleached rock is the one thing I’d look into. I have no idea how you’d test if the bleach all the way inside the rock was 100% gone.

it’s also very possible the rock could be the source of the copper if it was ever used in a tank that had copper. The main reason rocks are a no-go in a quarantine tank is because the absorb copper (and other meds).

metro and focus won’t do anything for ich. I’d stop trusting that LFS immediately. That ich is still there, unfortunately and you might have to look into ich management.

so I’d say the ich is killing the fish & there’s copper in that rock that’s leaching out & killing the inverts.

 

[UnderseaOddities]

@Shwammy77 it sounds like you brought home ich or maybe brooklynella this is rather common did you qt before putting them in the display?

 

[Shwammy77]

the bleached rock is the one thing I’d look into. I have no idea how you’d test if the bleach all the way inside the rock was 100% gone.

it’s also very possible the rock could be the source of the copper if it was ever used in a tank that had copper. The main reason rocks are a no-go in a quarantine tank is because the absorb copper (and other meds).

metro and focus won’t do anything for ich. I’d stop trusting that LFS immediately.

so I’d say the ich is killing the fish & there’s copper in that rock that’s leaching out & killing the inverts.

Would there be a way to test the rock? I was thinking of first, making sure there is no copper in the RO water before it goes into the tank. If there is no copper in that, then soak some of the rock in that water for a week and test it again? What do you think?

 

[Shwammy77]

@Shwammy77 it sounds like you brought home ich or maybe brooklynella this is rather common did you qt before putting them in the display?

Definitely did not QT. We are new to the hobby, so it is out of our knowledge range. Ich makes sense for the fish. We thought about brook, but there was no mucus look substance or the skin sloughing off. So, you think that the fish and invertebrates are unrelated?

 

[UnderseaOddities]

@phatduckk i agree with you 100% stores are grimey just out to make a quick $$$ i do 5 step qt drip then wait then praziquantal then annehyde then cupramine then hit with machalie green then blue fresh water dip week down the line week 7-8 your good to put in display @Shwammy77 another thing to consider is maybe you had an alk or calcium swing or wernt dosing enough carbon,dp uou have a reactor in your sump aswell as refigium and skimmer sand chacoal and biomedia?

 

[UnderseaOddities]

@Shwammy77 Did you test or have the store test a water sample 5 ways for amonia nitrate phosphates dkh ph water hardness calcium tds ectc and how were the readings?

 

[Shwammy77]

@phatduckk i agree with you 100% stores are grimey just out to make a quick $$$ i do 5 step qt drip then wait then praziquantal then annehyde then cupramine then hit with machalie green then blue fresh water dip week down the line week 7-8 your good to put in display @Shwammy77 another thing to consider is maybe you had an alk or calcium swing or wernt dosing enough carbon,dp uou have a reactor in your sump aswell as refigium and skimmer sand chacoal and biomedia?

Alkalinity was 10.5 and has been for a week (Got the Hanna tester a week ago which is why I only have a week of information). We have a skimmer in the sump. Haven't started carbon or a refugium yet.

 

[Shwammy77]

@Shwammy77 Did you test or have the store test a water sample 5 ways for amonia nitrate phosphates dkh ph water hardness calcium tds ectc and how were the readings?

Yes, brought it to the store and they tested all of that. The only thing that was outside of normal range was the copper at .1

 

[UnderseaOddities]

Would there be a way to test the rock? I was thinking of first, making sure there is no copper in the RO water before it goes into the tank. If there is no copper in that, then soak some of the rock in that water for a week and test it again? What do you think?

Do you use ro or rodi theres a difference some just have knd and ro memrane the others have ro di post filter some ro systems leave behind sediment chlorides and florides that pollute the water collumn if mixed with salt as base rodi should always be used over ro or tap or plain distilled or spring water if you have to buy water buy water that says purfied throught teverse osmosis deionization because other wise it msy through off ion exchange in water

 

[UnderseaOddities]

Basically if youre water is coming out anything but zero or not ph netural second geuss using it

 

[Shwammy77]

Do you use ro or rodi theres a difference some just have knd and ro memrane the others have ro di post filter some ro systems leave behind sediment chlorides and florides that pollute the water collumn if mixed with salt as base rodi should always be used over ro or tap or plain distilled or spring water if you have to buy water buy water that says purfied throught teverse osmosis deionization because other wise it msy through off ion exchange in water

It's an RODI system. The BRS 4 Stage system.

 

[UnderseaOddities]

It's an RODI system. The BRS 4 Stage system.

That shouldnt be the problem then and that minute amount ofcopper wouldnt
kill inverts like crabs but maybe shrimps and nems might get alittle uncomfortable i dont get it sometimes were just unlucky buddy every loss is a gain in someway ime we learn to do differntly,lower light,water changes more freqeuntly,dosing bi weekly,checking params more often its human error that causes us to strive to better next time and ask what did i do wrong? How can i do better next time?how can i reflect upon the decisions ive made to galvanize them and make it full proof and failproff...remember keep it as simple as possible less steps =less time and money wasted whcich in turn =sucsess

 

[UnderseaOddities]

Weve all had some unlucky expirences when i first started in 2006 we didnt have advanced internet it was all trial and error and learning from doing and reserching chemistry i had so many fish die and so much hearthache as a teen because there wernt local fishstores that sold saltwater in ohio only freshwater lfs if u wanted salt u had to shop chains like petco supplies or smart or have an llc and business liescense to shop at coral farmer or get on a wholesaler from indonesia or balis mailing list.. so i started with tomato clowns that cost 12$ a piece in 2006 i mustve lost 20-35 in year to ich hidden dormant in the fish until i brought them home and learned for myself i had to qt by wasting 100s of $ of my hard earned teen money which in bush era i was making like 6.50$ an hour to work at dq on saturday (1 day a week)so that was all the money i had as a poor student and had nothing to show for it just an empty tank i made me wanna give up at the time...now i look back in time and say wow that was amateur af but a learning expierence and it took me taking the loss of fish and $$$ to better myself and teach others by my own downfalls

 

[sunken3]

any updates?

for my 2 cents - could be all sorts of issues.. though personally I highly doubt ich took all your fish down if there were no real signs.. other than some spots on one of them. low copper could kill your inverts and corals, but wouldn't affect your fish (not in the short term). Swimming head down and dying rapidly seems either an oxygen issue, temp, or some sort of poisoning (i would be betting on the latter).

 

[Macbalacano]

#reefsquad any thoughts on this one?

 

[Lasse]

0.1 ppm copper is not a low concentration of copper. It can explain what happens with the inverts and also to some of your fish. Already at concentration above 0.02 ppm shrimps start to have problems. However - it is difficult to test Cu with some of the normal hobby test. What did your LFS use for testing 0.1 ppm Cu?

Are you sure that not the drugs you use for treating the supposed Ich contained copper?

IMO - you can rule out bleach (Your problem happened too long time after treatment) and probably also copper leaking from the rocks.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Cell]

Used tank or did you buy new? Used rocks, but purchased new by you or purchased used? If you purchased these items second hand, then they may have been exposed to copper and are now leaching it.