Absolutely Stumped- Fish and Inverts Dying

[josephxsxn]

0.1 ppm copper is not a low concentration of copper. It can explain what happens with the inverts and also to some of your fish. Already at concentration above 0.02 ppm shrimps start to have problems. However - it is difficult to test Cu with some of the normal hobby test. What did your LFS use for testing 0.1 ppm Cu?

I second this, any copper is bad for inverts and they will start to parish. Based on everything in your first post this is what I would focus on first.

Definitely test your RODI water and fresh salt mix... DI resin isn't perfect, it's really good but it only works for things which are ionically charged.. additionally the resin will swap out elements based on charge potentially pushing it back into the water. BRS did some experiments showing this mostly with silicates.
Put some cuprisorb into your sump to start removing it.

 

[Shwammy77]

0.1 ppm copper is not a low concentration of copper. It can explain what happens with the inverts and also to some of your fish. Already at concentration above 0.02 ppm shrimps start to have problems. However - it is difficult to test Cu with some of the normal hobby test. What did your LFS use for testing 0.1 ppm Cu?

Are you sure that not the drugs you use for treating the supposed Ich contained copper?

IMO - you can rule out bleach (Your problem happened too long time after treatment) and probably also copper leaking from the rocks.

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for responding! So to update, we took a bunch of different types of water to the fish store and they tested for copper (I believe they used a Hanna checker, but I could be wrong on that). Here are the results...

Water out of faucet (outside spigot that we run into our garage for our RODI 4 stage)- 1.6 ppm
Water after it goes through the RODI system- .03 ppm
Water after salt (Instant Ocean) is added to RODI water- .08 ppm
Water from the aquarium (5 days after adding the poly filter, and checking for metal with a magnet-none found)- 1.6 ppm

We added a bag of chemi-pure, changed the salt we use to Red Sea Coral Pro and did a 20% water change. We are going to take some more water to get tested this weekend.

The weird thing is that the fire shrimp and peppermint shrimp are doing well, as well as the conch, and four remaining hermit crabs. You would think that the copper continuing to go up would have harmed them.

 

[Shwammy77]

any updates?

for my 2 cents - could be all sorts of issues.. though personally I highly doubt ich took all your fish down if there were no real signs.. other than some spots on one of them. low copper could kill your inverts and corals, but wouldn't affect your fish (not in the short term). Swimming head down and dying rapidly seems either an oxygen issue, temp, or some sort of poisoning (i would be betting on the latter).

The wrasse lived, which was the original one who had the ich spots. Not sure about oxygen, but the wrasse didn't seem stressed. And the temp did not fluctuate.

 

[Shwammy77]

Used tank or did you buy new? Used rocks, but purchased new by you or purchased used? If you purchased these items second hand, then they may have been exposed to copper and are now leaching it.

The tank that we bought was used, but I am fairly certain it was used as a DT, so I don't know why someone would put copper in it. Any ideas of how to get it out?

 

[Shwammy77]

I second this, any copper is bad for inverts and they will start to parish. Based on everything in your first post this is what I would focus on first.

Definitely test your RODI water and fresh salt mix... DI resin isn't perfect, it's really good but it only works for things which are ionically charged.. additionally the resin will swap out elements based on charge potentially pushing it back into the water. BRS did some experiments showing this mostly with silicates.
Put some cuprisorb into your sump to start removing it.

They were out of cuprisorb at the fish store when we went on Saturday, but we will swing by there and get some.

 

[Tired]

As far as I know, once copper is in a display, it's in there permanently. Though usually not at amounts that could harm fish. The prior owner could have used copper medication without knowing not to- can you contact them and ask?

On the off chance something else is involved, has anyone used any sprays anywhere near the tank lately? Cleaners, air fresheners? Bug spray anywhere in the house? Burn a ton of scented candles or incense?

 

[sunken3]

Thanks for responding! So to update, we took a bunch of different types of water to the fish store and they tested for copper (I believe they used a Hanna checker, but I could be wrong on that). Here are the results...

Water out of faucet (outside spigot that we run into our garage for our RODI 4 stage)- 1.6 ppm
Water after it goes through the RODI system- .03 ppm
Water after salt (Instant Ocean) is added to RODI water- .08 ppm
Water from the aquarium (5 days after adding the poly filter, and checking for metal with a magnet-none found)- 1.6 ppm

We added a bag of chemi-pure, changed the salt we use to Red Sea Coral Pro and did a 20% water change. We are going to take some more water to get tested this weekend.

The weird thing is that the fire shrimp and peppermint shrimp are doing well, as well as the conch, and four remaining hermit crabs. You would think that the copper continuing to go up would have harmed them.

makes me want to go test my water with my hanna checker.. i have used the ATI ICP test and my water out of the RODI and saltwater tank water both have ZERO (non-detectable) copper.. so, yes it seems you have an issue (or a few).

 

[Shwammy77]

As far as I know, once copper is in a display, it's in there permanently. Though usually not at amounts that could harm fish. The prior owner could have used copper medication without knowing not to- can you contact them and ask?

On the off chance something else is involved, has anyone used any sprays anywhere near the tank lately? Cleaners, air fresheners? Bug spray anywhere in the house? Burn a ton of scented candles or incense?

I'm unable to contact the previous owner to find out for sure. So I guess, we just need to keep moving forward with removing it through media.

The LSF thought about the cleaners, air fresheners, etc., but we don't use anything like that.

 

[sunken3]

maybe take a bucket of clean SW (no copper).. pull a rock from your tank and stick it in the bucket.. wait a few days and test for copper.. that may tell you that the rocks are leaching copper.

 

[MnFish1]

IDK - to me it sounds like a couple things. 1. Just because fish don't swim to a power head doesnt mean its not velvet perhaps. And given the speed - I wonder if this wasn't velvet rather than Ich. 2. I would check your medications as to whether there is any copper in those. 3. Agree with @Lasse that copper can be a problem at those levels - CI or velvet certainly won't hurt inverts - yet some of your inverts survived. 4. You said one Conch died the first day - but then the rest were ok.

So:

1. It sounds like maybe velvet.
2. Did you add any of the 'fish water' into the tank - from the bag from the LFS (i.e. could the LFS have been using copper in their fish tanks.
3. If it was CI - sometimes if the LFS is using copper in their water - when then new fish is added without QT into a new tank - you then see the CI - and it can rapidly reproduce - BUT your tank is pretty big - for the number of fish.
4. My guess is that its a combination. The parasite causing the issues with the fish - either CI or velvet - and somehow copper is getting into your system - OR - the copper testing being done is not accurate - and its something else.
5. Sometimes when one thing dies and its not noticed right away and removed - ammonia spikes - which kills something else etc etc etc.

Hope this helps a little. In the meantime - I would get some cuprisorb (online) - and just keep things the way they are - continue the carbon - and keep watching the remainder of living things. Once things stabilize - (and water changes should help as well) - then re-add fish. Just a couple suggestions.

 

[MnFish1]

I second this, any copper is bad for inverts and they will start to parish. Based on everything in your first post this is what I would focus on first.

Definitely test your RODI water and fresh salt mix... DI resin isn't perfect, it's really good but it only works for things which are ionically charged.. additionally the resin will swap out elements based on charge potentially pushing it back into the water. BRS did some experiments showing this mostly with silicates.
Put some cuprisorb into your sump to start removing it.

Copper is 'ionized' (Cu 2+) and should be removed by DI. I believe they already did that testing - was posted in the thread.

 

[MnFish1]

FYI - you can use various calculators to determine how much water you need to change to get rid of a certain 'chemical' - for example if your copper is at 1.6 - and you do a 20% water change - the level afterwards will be: 1.3 ppm. You can use this calculator - to see how Many water changes will get the copper down to a level thats acceptable (you shouldn't need to re-test) - once you do the number of changes - recheck the copper level - if its higher than the calculation - its leaching from 'somewhere'. Again - hope this helps. Its difficult to lose fish, etc.

Effect of Water Changes Calculator

Aquarium calculator; Estimate the effect of repeated water changes on the concentration of a given substance.

www.hamzasreef.com

For example - you could put in 100 gallons volume - volume of water changed 20 gallons (20 percent), number of water changes 1, initial concentration 1.6 ppm, accumulation between changes 0, and the concentration in the water change (0). This gives you the result of 1.3 ppm after 1 20 percent change