Acclimation procedure: what did I do wrong?

[dugthefish]

Purchased my first fish yearerday, 3 azure damsels that had been at LFS for a few weeks (in copper). All were looking good and eating when I purchased.

1.5hr drive home
Floated bag for 15 minutes
Opened bag, remove 1 cup bag water, add 1 cup tank water. Every 10 minutes, 4x.
Added 1ml Paragard to floating bag for 45 min.
Released into QT.

This morning, 1 is dead, 1 is swimming and eating normally, and 1 is white and hanging in the corner (did see him zip out and grab a bite).

LFS says that's way too long an acclimation procedure, and fish likely died from ammonia poisoning.

 

[nereefpat]

Acclimation should have been fine the way you did it.

The ammonia toxicity shouldn't come in to play unless the fish were shipped.

Do you happen to know what the salinities of the fish store and your tank are?

Are the damsels beating on each other!

 

[dugthefish]

Acclimation should have been fine the way you did it.

The ammonia toxicity shouldn't come in to play unless the fish were shipped.

Do you happen to know what the salinities of the fish store and your tank are?

Are the damsels beating on each other!

Haven't seen any aggression between them. LFS salinity was very high, 1.029, mine is 1.025.

 

[ca1ore]

Ammonia won't build up in just 90 minutes so that's unlikely to be the reason. I've never heard of a LFS running at 1.029 ….. did you mean 1.019? BUT, if you are putting fish into QT, adjust the QT down (or maybe in this case, up) to the salinity in the bag; that way you only have to equalize temperature. I don't use paraguard, is there any kind of toxicity with copper I wonder (like with prime).

 

[dugthefish]

Ammonia won't build up in just 90 minutes so that's unlikely to be the reason. I've never heard of a LFS running at 1.029 ….. did you mean 1.019? BUT, if you are putting fish into QT, adjust the QT down (or maybe in this case, up) to the salinity in the bag; that way you only have to equalize temperature. I don't use paraguard, is there any kind of toxicity with copper I wonder (like with prime).

No, it was dang near 1.030, I was a little shocked as I expected it to be lower than my parameters. Don't see any warning about using the Paragard in conjunction with copper on the Seachem website but who knows....

 

[Bayareareefer18]

No, it was dang near 1.030, I was a little shocked as I expected it to be lower than my parameters. Don't see any warning about using the Paragard in conjunction with copper on the Seachem website but who knows....

Quick email to seachem might be worth it. They are usually very quick and thorough with their responses.

That's suprising about salinity. Wouldn't seem very cost effective

 

[azbigjohn]

Do you have plenty of aeration in your QT tank? I know copper and other meds can reduce oxygen, but I would definitely defer to the experts here... #reefsquad

 

[dugthefish]

Do you have plenty of aeration in your QT tank? I know copper and other meds can reduce oxygen, but I would definitely defer to the experts here... #reefsquad

20gal long with a penguin 150 filter and a 100pgh powerhead

 

[Flippers4pups]

Purchased my first fish yearerday, 3 azure damsels that had been at LFS for a few weeks (in copper). All were looking good and eating when I purchased.

1.5hr drive home
Floated bag for 15 minutes
Opened bag, remove 1 cup bag water, add 1 cup tank water. Every 10 minutes, 4x.
Added 1ml Paragard to floating bag for 45 min.
Released into QT.

This morning, 1 is dead, 1 is swimming and eating normally, and 1 is white and hanging in the corner (did see him zip out and grab a bite).

LFS says that's way too long an acclimation procedure, and fish likely died from ammonia poisoning.

I would have to agree that the acclimation time would have been a little long. Some may disagree with me. Ammonia toxicity can and does ramp up quickly in a small bag of water once opened to the air. You did remove and replace water in the bag. That's good and most likely kept the ammonia at bay, but the time dipping with Paragard may have done the damage. I say may.

Seachem's SDS on Paragard states it's ingredients are trade secret. What's used in it is unknown. Could it have raised the toxicity of the copper, possible.

If Paragard was done as a prophylactic treatment without visable signs of parasites, this would have been better suited done in the QT.

Next time do the same acclimation procedure, maybe a little less time. 15mins float to temp and water changes, I keep my acclimation time to 20 mins tops for fish. A hour for inverts.

A word of caution about adding Prime or Amquel to acclimation buckets or bags, Don't do it! It can raise the toxicity of copper x10 if the fish came from a copper system. If not sure, still don't do it!

 

[Twistedpro]

You have added paraguard to water with copper in it, the reducing agent of paraguard has changed the chemcial composition of the copper and made it toxic to the fish and they have been poisoned by copper

 

[Flippers4pups]

You have added paraguard to water with copper in it, the reducing agent of paraguard has changed the chemcial composition of the copper and made it toxic to the fish and they have been poisoned by copper

Do you have some info on what's in Paragard? I'm curious.

 

[Twistedpro]

its the aldehydes in the paraguard that will reduce the copper

 

[Flippers4pups]

its the aldehydes in the paraguard that will reduce the copper

Is there a TDS on it? By the way, thanks for the info!

 

[dugthefish]

Stopped and checked on them over lunch, both have regained all their color and are moving around a bit more.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Good to hear!

 

[Lasse]

From Seachems homepage

synergistic blend of aldehydes, malachite green, and fish protective polymers that effectively and efficiently eradicates many ectoparasites (e.g. ich, etc.) and external fungal/bacterial/viral lesions (e.g., fin rot). It is particularly useful in hospital and receiving tanks for new fish and whenever new fish are introduced to a community tank.

Use 5 mL (1 capful) of ParaGuard™ for every 40 L (10 US gallons).

For 1 hour dips, use 3 mL per 4 L (1 US gallon)

From SeaChems forum

Re: Coppersafe and Paraguard

ParaGuard functions as a reducing agent and if combined with a copper based medication, the copper can be reduced to a more toxic form. Since Coppersafe is a chelated copper, the bond is different than Cupramine, but when mixed with reducing agents, the bond could still potentially be altered. I would say that you have been incredibly lucky! When copper is not bound, it can be extremely toxic to fish in concentrations typically needed to eradicate parasites. To be safe, we would not recommend dosing ParaGuard with any copper based medication.

I would recommend using a dip method instead if you need to treat with more than one treatment. Keep in mind that using more than one medication at a time can be stressful, so you may also consider boosting the immune support of your fish by using supplements such as GarlicGuard and/or Vitality.

Added 1ml Paragard to floating bag for 45 min

​

You used a strong solution in a dip bath containing copper - I´m rather sure - that´s your problem.

I do not believe in NH3 poisoning with that short tranport

Sincerely Lasse

 

[dugthefish]

From Seachems homepage




From SeaChems forum

​

You used a strong solution in a dip bath containing copper - I´m rather sure - that´s your problem.

I do not believe in NH3 poisoning with that short tranport

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you for confirming that

 

[vetteguy53081]

Adding paraguard into a bag a no-no as it is hard to measure a proper dose.. The acclimation seemed satisfactory although in a bag not best with 3 fish. In the future pour into a CLEAN bucket or bowl and add those cups of water 4-6 times over 1-1.5 hours.
That salinity is very high from LFS but adding cups would make it safe. Do not pour bag or bucket water into tank if you did.

 

[JRAD]

Glad they are doing better!

 

[dugthefish]

Adding paraguard into a bag a no-no as it is hard to measure a proper dose.. The acclimation seemed satisfactory although in a bag not best with 3 fish. In the future pour into a CLEAN bucket or bowl and add those cups of water 4-6 times over 1-1.5 hours.
That salinity is very high from LFS but adding cups would make it safe. Do not pour bag or bucket water into tank if you did.

Ok, part of proper acclimation is temperature. If I put in an unheated bucket, wont the water cool below tank parameters?