Achilles tang

[eatbreakfast]

This is true and I too know exceptions. But to suggest to people that this is a good idea particularly with young, small tanks is not ethical IMO. Some of the most experienced hobbyists cannot successfully use ich management and acanthurus tangs.

Those that I have seen have success with this always have enormous tanks- 350-1500 gallons.

Nori access 24/7 also helps keep acanthurus (or any) tangs fat and nourished while building resistance.

A 125g tank for a 3" fish is not a small tank in this situation. Tangs don't need a pod presence, so once the tank has completed cycling it is mature enough for a tang, neither of these present unethical situations.

 

[4FordFamily]

A 125g tank for a 3" fish is not a small tank in this situation. Tangs don't need a pod presence, so once the tank has completed cycling it is mature enough for a tang, neither of these present unethical situations.

Not talking about this incident in particular, this is referring to the gentlemen that has kept an Achilles in a 90 gallon for some time.

In addition, ich management with this species in a 125 will be a very tall order and is still unlikely to succeed - particularly in a 9 month old tank. Again, I hope I am wrong.

The tank is probably fine in the absence of parasites. Just my opinion, doesn't make it right.

To the op - one option is to give it a shot, but have a backup plan. I take several risks that are not recommended - but do so knowing I have a plan B or even C for that animal should something go awry.

Set up a 20L or longer/larger quarantine tank for the Achilles tang. Start the cycle by "ghost feeding" it. Make sure there is lots of sponge in areas where lots of flow touches it (HOB filters work well) to allow beneficial bacteria to colonize. This way, when you add the sick Achilles to the qt, ammonia won't further his demise. Have cupramine handy, and buy the ammonia badge by seachem because ammonia test kits are rendered useless by many meds including cupramine. The badge is much easier to use as well.

When your fish is breathing heavily, is too infested, or is losing weight, take him out and place in the QT with .25 ppm cupramine (increase to .50 over a few days) to start. It's advisable to dip him in freshwater with matched temp and ph (I use araga milk to increase ph in my dip water) for 5-10 minutes (although humblefish would be better equipped to advise you on this) prior to going in to the QT. This will help provide immediate relief at least to the gill area since copper takes a few days (so does any med) to provide significant relief to ich.

How to identify when it is generally too late (remember it will take 3 days for the parasite to significantly retreat)
1) the fish has a fat belly from nori but his spine and lateral line is showing quite obviously
2) he has stopped eating
3) he is swimming in to power heads for 1/2 or more of the day (indicates gill damage and an oxygen shortage)
4) he is absolutely coated in parasites
5) his behavior changes significantly - such as a hiding fish that used to be out in the open a lot.

Most of the time a fish with one or more of the issues above will not make it another three days. That said, you should try anyway. A few spots is not too alarming. What I've seen dozens of times is a fish has a few spots for a month or so but then they gradually increase. If at the peak time of day that you check on the fish, they don't seem to be reduced in number at any point, he is probably losing the battle. This can be misleading because of the life cycle of ich, but if it seems like week by week (if it makes it that long) the problem is worsening and not improving, pay close attention and be ready for plan B.

At this stage, fish in QT may die because they are heavily infested. The stress of QT may not help matters, either. That said, a losing battle ends typically with defeat. It's a necessary evil. I've brought many fish back but many people that are not proponents of hospital tanks and qt tanks blame these setups for killing fish - when the only time they use them is when the fish is already very sick and was likely going to die anyway. Ammonia is also the number one killer in these circumstances - which is why I suggest that you set it up and get the cycle moving now. You can "seed" your QT with sponge from another tank but that tank ought to be verified ich-free or you'll just contaminate the QT also. But if you plan to medicate anyway, then I would seed because the ammonia concern is far greater.

After recovery you have a choice. Try again and hope that repeated exposure leads to a resistant fish, or rehome the animal to someone that utilizes proper qt procedures and has an ich free tank. This is not easy to do and many do not achieve this.

This is probably not the most ethical way to treat these creatures due to the suffering but it may work. Pray that you don't get velvet as it's far more deadly.

I wish you the best of luck either way. Make sure you post photos!

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Alright. Right now I just have two clownfish and I did not QT them. My tank is very young so I added them to basically added them to get the biofilter going keeping the LR I seeded with alive. The LFS I got the from always have quality stock and no signs of ich in their tanks or on the clownfish but should I go ahead and pull them out and QT them before I add anything else?

I would. However, you will need to QT them for 8 weeks in order to allow your display to go fallow and kill off any parasites that the clowns might have been carrying. Again, this is my .02. I believe firmly in QT and practice it with every fish entering my system. I choose not to go the management route because 1) it involves leaving parasites in the system that even if they don't kill the fish are certainly harmful (I wouldn't intentionally leave a parasite on any pet even if I knew it wasn't life-threatening...just doesn't seem like good care to me), 2) the parasite will always have the potential to overpower my ability to manage it, and 3) in the long run, management will be more work than a QT which is final and once it has been completed is done. So, I definitely recommend QT of the 2 clowns you already have and letting the tank go fallow for 8 weeks.

 

[ca1ore]

Garlic, diatom filters, UV, upside purple donkey giraffe hybrids that regurgitate batman boxer briefs, etc are often credited for what was really just a healthy fish working up a healthy resistance and kicking it on their own.

The reason this debate persists is that there is no scientific basis for any of the observations we make about our tanks; neither mine nor yours. 'My fish has ich, I soak food in garlic, ich goes away .... must be the garlic'. Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe it's just a healthy fish resistance; maybe it's not. They are all unproved assumptions .....

I posted my own 'assumptions' many years ago on a different forum .....

1. While ich can be managed, it is not recommended for the newcomer; experience is important.
2. Sometimes ich can be managed; sometimes it cannot. The reasons why are unclear, but likely result from a combination of factors including tank type (reef versus FOWLR), fish types, filtration methods, and the ich strain involved
3. Two types of tanks - those that have ich and those that the owner 'believes' are ich free; of the latter, some really are ich free, but others simply await the introduction of an 'ich magnet' to reveal the infection.
4. Proper QT of all fish is extremely helpful in building a fish population (and in reducing impact on one's wallet)

 

[Ryan15236]

Alright. I have a good idea of what I need and want to do. Some ways may work best for some people but I am just going to QT and prophylactically treat all fish for Ich, Flukes, and whatever else I come up with during more research. I have all intentions QTing my fish. I have a 20 gallon long QT tank with Cupramine, Formalin, Metro, Methylene Blue, Prazipro, and maybe a few other meds already. The only reason I went ahead and added to clownfish is to let the biofiltration start reproducing and keep it alive. I went with clownfish because I figured I can catch them somewhat easily without tearing apart the tank lol. So here is my plan and you guys can let me know what you think about it.
1. Leave the tank be for now and let it keep maturing and get good husbandry practices down now. Make sure I can keep up with all parameters such as Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium. Spend that money now on making sure I have everything to have a successful reef tank first. During this time I will continue to add corals and some CUC occasionally. This time also allows my frags to start filling out the tank.
2.Maturation period. Atleast 3 months of how the tank is now, even with the clownfish in their. No point in rushing anything. Just continue with husbandry, dosing, or whatever needs to be done. More time for the reef to fill out some.
3. Fallow period. Remove the clownfish and let the tank run fallow for 10 weeks, maybe a little longer. I want to make sure the ich if it is in there has died off. Also during this time treat the clownfish for the parasites. Probably also add royal gramma and firefish to go through QT with them. Next group of anthias. Then finally the Achilles tang. I feel the longer I wait to start QTing properly the better prepared I will be. I only want to do this once!!!
4. Stocking the tank with healthy and happy livestock!!

 

[Humblefish]

Did you read the link provided? No comments?

Yes, read them both. I acquire fish with velvet to conduct research on. If we lived closer, and of course with your permission, I'd love to bring a specimen over to place in your DT to see just how effective your diatom filter is at eradicating (or managing) velvet.

Of course, that's not practical. However, I do have an open mind. So I have started this thread on diatom filters in the fish disease forum: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diatom-filter-for-treating-external-parasites.212429/

I would very much appreciate your input there, as I do not wish to further derail this thread with a back & forth about the effectiveness of a diatom filter for disease control.

 

[omar jawad]

Are there any fish suppliers that claim to quarantine for a suitable period of time?

 

[4FordFamily]

Are there any fish suppliers that claim to quarantine for a suitable period of time?

Regardless of what they claim I would NOT gamble on it. To answer your question though, no not to my awareness.

 

[Humblefish]

Are there any fish suppliers that claim to quarantine for a suitable period of time?

LADD specimens go thru this QT protocol: http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=425

However, I know people who supposedly have gotten ich & flukes from LADD fish. So IMO; trust no QT protocol other than your own.

 

[Richard Lowry]

What do you think about ich management when the Achilles is the only fish competing for it's food with minimal other fish. Like 2 clowns a royal gramma, firefish, and fairy wrasse. I have read some other forum threads of people having very low fish stocking and the fish being in sps tanks, which normally are pristine water and high flow, and saying their Achilles would occasionally get a few spots but they just used garlic and selcon with lots nori and the tang always fought it off quickly. I have intentions of QTing the fish I am just saying what if I mess up and a little ich gets through and the fish does develop a few spots.

Some of my tangs and other fish I have had like the barbonis anthias have gotten a few spots and I give them the garlic, selcon and vita chem and they have always healed right up. Just make sure u get healthy fish that are eating and clean from the beginnig. I dont QT the high strung fish because it just makes it worse and seems to stress them out more. But this is me and what I've always done and so far worked very well for me. They heal with just food n the other stuff I mentioned. I tried the antibiotics n seemed the fish got worse n broke out more n some died. Food works much better n if they are healty fish from the begining they will heal right up. Good luck just sharing my experience.

 

[DancingShark]

This is from 2015. But your are right. I don't buy from lfs unless they are eating.

That's a beautiful anemone on your avatar. I am currently obese with them.