Achilles tang

What do you think about ich management when the Achilles is the only fish competing for it's food with minimal other fish. Like 2 clowns a royal gramma, firefish, and fairy wrasse. I have read some other forum threads of people having very low fish stocking and the fish being in sps tanks, which normally are pristine water and high flow, and saying their Achilles would occasionally get a few spots but they just used garlic and selcon with lots nori and the tang always fought it off quickly. I have intentions of QTing the fish I am just saying what if I mess up and a little ich gets through and the fish does develop a few spots.

This will not work long term. I have tried many, many times. I had an Achilles managing ich for one year in the past. He slowly succumbed.

I've tried it with another 6 or more and they lived 1 week to 3 months before the parasite finished them off.
 
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Another reason this group of tangs struggles so much with ich is because of the sheer distance they travel each day. They're always moving and parasites struggle to attach. When they do, their offspring rarely if ever find the same host because it is long gone. They swim several miles per day, I've seen claims that 10-20 miles is even witnessed. They're always essentially running away from parasites and are never around for the next generation of exponentially more parasites to grab them. They can build immunities because of the exponentially slower reproducing potential of ich.

Since proper qt, I am 2/2. Both are thriving.
 
Geez...I read that thread.

Some of what we think are best practices in this hobby are just wrong in my opinion. Tangs especially the Acanthurus tangs are very susceptible to ich, but ich (and velvet) is also manageable - not through dips and medications but through filtration.

Diatomaceous earth filters take it out very effectively - I wouldn't keep a tang without one.

check out: http://aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Diatomfilters.html

Diatom filters work the same as UVs, removing free swimming parasites from the water. However, it is unrealistic to believe it removes all of them before some make their way onto a fish. This is especially true when it comes to velvet - a single tomont releases around 200 dinospores (free swimmers looking to infect fish). There can be hundreds of tomonts in the rocks/substrate. Pretty scary when you do the math and add it all up. In addition, velvet's average life cycle completes in just 4 days and dinospores can remain infective for up to 15 days - ich's average life cycle takes around 2 weeks, with one strain discovered taking as long as 72 days. With ich theronts (free swimmers), infectivity is greatly reduced just 6-8 hours after it leaves the cyst. So yeah, while not ideal, most healthy fish can deal with ich. However, most fish's natural immune systems cannot manage the kind of bombardment that velvet brings in a closed system aquarium. The overwhelming numbers is what makes velvet so different and so much more dangerous than ich.
 
What QT method do you use for Achilles tangs?

I treat them in .5ppm or more for 4 weeks and then do two tank transfers. I ensure that the tank they're going on does not (and has not ever had) ich. If it has had ich, all fish also need to be treated and the tank fun fallow for 72 days.

A tank without any noticeable symptoms for years can and will still have ich and it will eventually kill these fish.
 
Alright. Right now I just have two clownfish and I did not QT them. My tank is very young so I added them to basically added them to get the biofilter going keeping the LR I seeded with alive. The LFS I got the from always have quality stock and no signs of ich in their tanks or on the clownfish but should I go ahead and pull them out and QT them before I add anything else?
 
Diatom filters work the same as UVs, removing free swimming parasites from the water. However, it is unrealistic to believe it removes all of them before some make their way onto a fish. This is especially true when it comes to velvet - a single tomont releases around 200 dinospores (free swimmers looking to infect fish). There can be hundreds of tomonts in the rocks/substrate. Pretty scary when you do the math and add it all up. In addition, velvet's average life cycle completes in just 4 days and dinospores can remain infective for up to 15 days - ich's average life cycle takes around 2 weeks, with one strain discovered taking as long as 72 days. With ich theronts (free swimmers), infectivity is greatly reduced just 6-8 hours after it leaves the cyst. So yeah, while not ideal, most healthy fish can deal with ich. However, most fish's natural immune systems cannot manage the kind of bombardment that velvet brings in a closed system aquarium. The overwhelming numbers is what makes velvet so different and so much more dangerous than ich.

I've used this treatment for so long...from personal experience I can tell you it works quite well. I don't quarantine. I've had ich and velvet in my display and have controlled and eliminated it with this method many, many times. No meds no garlic, no hospital tank - no stress.

The trick is you have to size the filter appropriately to the system. - don't do that = won't work

From the article I linked (did your read it?)

Diatom Filters

by Dr. Adrian Lawler
(retired) Aquarium Supervisor (l984-l998) J. L. Scott Aquarium Biloxi, Ms 39530
Original to Aquarticles

"In the early l980's I found that diatom filters easily filtered out free-swimming dinospores ofAmyloodinium ocellatum, and in my outreach advisory program passed this knowledge on to various aquariums and aquaculture ventures around the country, enabling various facilities to exhibit dinoflagellate-free fish, and to raise redfish, cobia, red snapper, speckled trout, pompano, and other species without worry about deaths from A. ocellatum."

"At the Scott Aquarium I used large diatom (swimming pool) filters to effectively control, or eliminate, some bacteria, dinoflagellates, monogenea, copepods, etc. Such filters remove many free-swimming infective stages of various parasites from the tank water before they can attach to their hosts, and when the attached adult parasites on the fish die, the fish are eventually left parasite-free;"

The Scott Aquarium is closed - destroyed by hurricane Katrina - they ran a 42,000 gal display called the "Gulf of Mexico"

 
Yes and I have currently, and have had many tangs...including a very nice 6" Achellis Tang that has had both ich and velvet...
The absolute worst case I had was my Black Tang - I won him in an auction and he arrived completely covered....even with the added stress of shipping - the diatom filter did the trick. I don't add tangs often...I tend to keep the ones I've got, but I added a jewel tang last weekend...no qt.

Yes - I did read the thread - I almost replied - but I anticipated the response.
 
This is an old debate - one that never ends with any semblance of a satisfactory consensus. If a particular approach works for you, great; even if the underlying science is debatable. I, for one, always run large UV clarifiers on my tanks, 'believing' that they help to reduce parasite pressure giving the fish a better chance of winning. Do they? Maybe, maybe not - but I'm unwilling to shut the UV down. My own empirical evidence is that I have ich in my tank, yet an Achilles tang has been living in mys system for 18 months and it shows no sign of losing ground to the occasional spots.

Regardless of the presence of ich, I still QT all new fish obsessively.
 
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Alright. Right now I just have two clownfish and I did not QT them. My tank is very young so I added them to basically added them to get the biofilter going keeping the LR I seeded with alive. The LFS I got the from always have quality stock and no signs of ich in their tanks or on the clownfish but should I go ahead and pull them out and QT them before I add anything else?

If they we're carrying - its already in the display - I wouldn't.
 
This is an old debate - one that never ends with any semblance of a satisfactory consensus. If a particular approach works for you, great; even if the underlying science is debatable. I, for one, always run large UV clarifiers on my tanks, 'believing' that they help to reduce parasite pressure giving the fish a better chance of winning. Do they? Maybe, maybe not - but I'm unwilling to shut the UV down. My own empirical evidence is that I have ich in my tank, yet an Achilles tank has been living in mys system for 18 months and it shows no sign of losing ground to the occasional spots.

Regardless of the presence of ich, I still QT all new fish obsessively.

I too run UV...120W with 36W effective killing power. By itself, in my system I find it won't eliminate ich. But I run UV for other reasons as well. I wouldn't run without it.
 
I too run UV...120W with 36W effective killing power. By itself, in my system I find it won't eliminate ich.

Not in my system either, but I believe it helps control ich (never had velvet).
 
As mentioned above, everyone should do what works best for them. Whether that means putting your faith in a diatom filter, UV, garlic, fish vitamins, live blackworms, or an obsessive QT protocol. ;) But if you wake up one morning, and fish with tiny white dots all over their body are dying left & right - at least have the sense to realize it's time to start doing things differently. :)
 
As mentioned above, everyone should do what works best for them. Whether that means putting your faith in a diatom filter, UV, garlic, fish vitamins, live blackworms, or an obsessive QT protocol. ;) But if you wake up one morning, and fish with tiny white dots all over their body are dying left & right - at least have the sense to realize it's time to start doing things differently. :)

Did you read the link provided? No comments?

Many aquaculture systems use Diatom filters to control ich...search it... look into their designs....
many, many include de filters for this purpose.

from: https://www.lsuagcenter.com/NR/rdon...F6-280F1BA996E2/393/LA_redfish_production.pdf

aquacultureLO.png


aquaculture.png
 
BTW - there are other parasitical diseases found in the water column which can be removed by de filtration"

MONOGENETIC TREMATODE INFECTION
Cobia carry a gill monogenea Dioncus rachycentris Hargis, l955 , which, in tank/confined areas can multiply very rapidly, causing extreme breathing distress in the fish, which must then be given 1:4000 formalin baths of at least 15 minutes duration to knock most of the worms off the gills. This bath may have to be repeated several times as worm eggs in the gill mucus can re-infect the fish. Worm eggs in the water column can be filtered out with a diatom filter.

Never had this myself...but I wouldn't be surprised if we don't have an analog in our systems.
 
So I guess I'm wrong, AG offices are wrong and at least one director of a major aquarium is wrong...at least I'm in good company...

I think my fish might appreciate the lack of copper/formalin baths...its pretty hard on them you know...
 
So make your magic elixer to cure ich - experiment with it on as many fish as you can buy. Let me know how it turns out - maybe oneday I'll buy some.

In the meantime - proper filteration goes a very long way towards addressing many issues...ich and velvet among them. I think you do the hobby a disservice lumping it in with fad remedies. My 2 cents.
 
Good luck with all of that.

Since ich management is a viable strategy for many species and within a week several fish, even tangs, can go from being covered in ich to apparently having no spots, many things are "credited" for this.

Garlic, diatom filters, UV, upside purple donkey giraffe hybrids that regurgitate batman boxer briefs, etc are often credited for what was really just a healthy fish working up a healthy resistance and kicking it on their own.

That's why we see such a plethora of outlandish ich eradication methods.

Again, best of luck but the science isn't there. I hope I am wrong for your fish. Just remember, your fish should all live ten to twenty years in captivity. Anything less means you've likely failed in your husbandry.
 
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100% quarantine is best practice, however it is not the only means of being successful. Ich management can be successful, but is more difficult with Acanthurus than other fishes.

That being said, I have a client that has a midas touch with them. He never quarantines, doesn't run uv sterilizers, and is pretty lax on water changes, however he always has the nicest powder blues and achilles tangs. However, they are in his office and he is able to feed them frequent (10+) small meals a day.

Another customer I have has a number of Acanthurus tangs and also does not quarantine and they have gone 3+yrs without ich or velvet.

Diatom filters and uv sterilizers definitely eradicate any parasites that pass through, and often reducing the number of parasites that way is enough to keep healthy fish from having an outbreak.

Think of humans, we are surrounded by pathogens, but most of the time are able to avoid disease outbreaks ourselves, not by complete quarantine, but by decent health practices. Some have better immune systems than others, but nearly all of us can avoid living life in a bubble.

Some of us in our fish care have failed many times along the way of finding what practices work for each of us. To say they one way is the only way, even if that is the only way you have succeeded despite other attempts is dogmatic and, perhaps true in your case, is frankly not correct and unfounded by science.
 
100% quarantine is best practice, however it is not the only means of being successful. Ich management can be successful, but is more difficult with Acanthurus than other fishes.

That being said, I have a client that has a midas touch with them. He never quarantines, doesn't run uv sterilizers, and is pretty lax on water changes, however he always has the nicest powder blues and achilles tangs. However, they are in his office and he is able to feed them frequent (10+) small meals a day.

Another customer I have has a number of Acanthurus tangs and also does not quarantine and they have gone 3+yrs without ich or velvet.

Diatom filters and uv sterilizers definitely eradicate any parasites that pass through, and often reducing the number of parasites that way is enough to keep healthy fish from having an outbreak.

Think of humans, we are surrounded by pathogens, but most of the time are able to avoid disease outbreaks ourselves, not by complete quarantine, but by decent health practices. Some have better immune systems than others, but nearly all of us can avoid living life in a bubble.

Some of us in our fish care have failed many times along the way of finding what practices work for each of us. To say they one way is the only way, even if that is the only way you have succeeded despite other attempts is dogmatic and, perhaps true in your case, is frankly not correct and unfounded by science.
This is true and I too know exceptions. But to suggest to people that this is a good idea particularly with young, small tanks is not ethical IMO. Some of the most experienced hobbyists cannot successfully use ich management and acanthurus tangs.

Those that I have seen have success with this always have enormous tanks- 350-1500 gallons.

Nori access 24/7 also helps keep acanthurus (or any) tangs fat and nourished while building resistance.
 
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