Adding Aquacultured Live Rock... What's your take?

[schooncw]

Having been in the hobby for my entire life and in the industry for many years, I would never consider anything other than live rock for a new system and I always tried to get several varieties. I have never used aqua cultured rock but as long as it is "real", am sure it would be fine. If I were to start a new system, I would try to get live rock from the ocean but It would NOT be dry! Never really had an issue with pests and just considered them part of the deal.

 

[schooncw]

I have to confess, I was parrotting what somebody else said in my previous reply. I think the entirety of his post is an appropriate reply to your question:



I also want to point out that the various animals we keep in our tanks come from environments that are not identical. For example, yellow tangs come from Hawaii whereas purple tangs come from the Red Sea. Different temp and salinity levels. Some of our corals come from Fiji, others from Indonesia, and yet other from the Carribean. Aside from differences in geography, our animals come from different depths in the reef. So what is "natural" to one animal might be unusual for another.

To be clear, I am not against live rock. I am not for it either. I am ambivelant. I am simply saying that whenever see someone contemplating adding live rock to their reef, I am always curious to find out what problem they are trying to solve. I've read plenty of "experts" say that live rock is superior to dead rock. It might be so but I haven't myself seen anyone itemize the reasons why. And how they came to quantify these reasons. I have seen plenty of people of say "tanks with live rock don't have cyano, they don't have dinos". I find those questions highly questionable. Hobbyists have been plagued by cyano and dinos long before live rock became hard to come by.

The issue-for me-is NOT trying to "solve" a problem but to get the most bio diversity possible and to achieve a properly "mature" system as soon as possible. Bacteria in a bottle/ghost feeding/etc. will never achieve this.

 

[SMSREEF]

The issue-for me-is NOT trying to "solve" a problem but to get the most bio diversity possible and to achieve a properly "mature" system as soon as possible. Bacteria in a bottle/ghost feeding/etc. will never achieve this.

I agree with you completely! My dead Marco rock was not cutting it. Spent over $100 on different bottled bacteria to increase biodiversity. It didn’t work.
Added some live and tank is 100% better. It’s beyond just the bacteria... I think the worms and other small life is really important in a tank.
Plus it’s just gorgeous!

 

[ChrisNH]

I think there is a market for small live rock “booster” kits but most of the companies focus on larger amounts. Seems like if we can ship fish and shrimp via FedEx we should be able to ship a few lbs of encrusted live Small rocks and rubble..

 

[schooncw]

I agree with you completely! My dead Marco rock was not cutting it. Spent over $100 on different bottled bacteria to increase biodiversity. It didn’t work.
Added some live and tank is 100% better. It’s beyond just the bacteria... I think the worms and other small life is really important in a tank.
Plus it’s just gorgeous!

We have to bear in mind, that many of the benefits of "live" rock are never seen and I don't think many reefers consider this.

 

[SMSREEF]

I think there is a market for small live rock “booster” kits but most of the companies focus on larger amounts. Seems like if we can ship fish and shrimp via FedEx we should be able to ship a few lbs of encrusted live Small rocks and rubble..

Check out KP, they ship 10lb overnight for $129
You could let them know you want small pieces...

 

[CK00020]

How much die off am I going to get by the time it gets to northern wi

 

[schooncw]

How much die off am I going to get by the time it gets to northern wi

You won't know until you get it! I would place it in the tank immediately and add the proper dosage of Prime, to neutralize ammonia and nitrite

 

[Timfish]

First of all I see a distinct difference between "aquacultured" live rock that has been conditioned with bacteria and "Maricultured" rock that has been sitting in the ocean and has a bunch of stuff growing on it, especially cryptic sponges. Adding maricultured rock is essential, and it's not just my opinion, Nilsen and Fossa in their series "The Modern Reef Aquarium" state "Live rock is so important for the coral reef aquarium that we would like to deal with the subject in a chapter by itself" (Vol I, og 169) Delbeck and Sprung in Vol I of their series "The Reef Aquarium" point out in their discusion of live rock if done properly a balance system can be established in one day but it is best to be patient. Nilsen and Fossa also give a definition of live rock that would exclude most of what's advertised as live rock today. I haven't read through all the other posts so this may be redundant but Aquabiomic posted an article of a study showing the differences between dry rock, rock conditioned with bacteria and maricultured live rock and there were very clear benefits of the maricultured.

I've gotta get on my soap box regarding pests in live rock. First off, the pest that has caused me more frustration and killed vastly more animals, by both quantitiy and cost, has been Bubble Tip Anemonies. Not manitis shrimp, not aiptasia, not majanos. And of those latter three most of the aiptasia and all the majanos I've had show up in my tanks have been hitchhikers on stuff I've gotten from other aquarists. I really blame fearmongers, trying to promote themselves in thier videos and posts, ignoring scientists like Fossa, Nilseen, Delbeck and Sprung, for causing a lot of cycling problems and frustration for beginning aquarists.

It's very difficult to find wild live rock but there are several good cources for maricultured (I've been happy with GulfLiveRock.com). I always quarintine everything I don't get from an aquarium I don't know and this includes live rock. The first week I'm prepared to do daily water changes (up to 30%) if neccessary depending on the amount of dieoff which will vary from shipment to shipment. As far as pests I've not found it to be much of an inconvienence finding and getting rid of them during quarantine. There is no magic number for amount of live rock. The old number bandied around was 1 lb per gal. and I've never used anything close to that. Generally I use around 3/4 lbs per gallon combined of live rock and dry rock in my aquascaping and seperating out the two it's roughly 1/4 to 1/2 lb live rock and roughly 1/4 to 1/2 dry. For an already established system any amount af live rock with sponges would be of some benefit but it some of the existing rck can be swapped out for additional live rock I would do that.

 

[fish farmer]

I dunno. I've never seen the benefits of live rock actually quantified in any scientific way. There are a quite a few experienced reefers who swear by live rock and give the same reasons you give (beneficial bacteria and hitch hikers). Yet I am not sure what these beneficial bacterias are and what additional benefits you get from them beyond what you would get with dry rock, bottled bacteria and bacteria from tank additions would give you over time. The supposed benefits seem to always involve a lot of hand waving as opposed to detailed, itemized lists of exactly what the benefits are and how these benefits were quantified.

I will say though that hobbyists from decades past have been plagued with a lot of the same issues we see today with dry rock - cyano, dinos and nuissance algae. These things did not just start appearing when hobbyists started using live rock. Live rock, either collected from the wild or aqua cultured, are not the silver bullet for avoiding these issues. Anybody that tells you that live rock will ensure that you don't have these issues... I would take that stuff with a grain of salt. As for hitch hikers, yeah, you will get them. Some good. Others, not so much.

To me, the question comes down to, what problem are you trying to solve by introducing live rock? I think you should solve a problem with a solution, not figure out what problems that you could solve simply because you want live rock.

You bring up good points.

I know I'm biased since I've never set up a tank completely with dry, rarely dip frags, been reusing/swapping rocks from two different systems for 20 years.

I had ugly phases in my first reef set up with 50/50 dry and raw Fiji, it still had an ugly phase, GHA, possibly some cyano, cured in tank and took about two months for the ammonia and nitrites to zero. I was running lights at the time as well and doing WC's. siphoning as much rot as I could.

I feel that some teachings today are leaving your tank alone....keep your hands literally out of the tank and let stuff like cyano, etc, just do their thing. I agree to a point, but if the tank is unbalanced, too much or too less of X.....go ahead and fix it whether it is by over/underfeeding, flow, WC, etc, etc.

 

[AltitudeAquarium]

My first aquarium was a biocube. With it being small and with no sump, I was challenged to maintain good parameters and a balance of diverse life. I knew I was going to upgrade to an an aquarium with a sump. I had dry rock that set in buckets of water from water changes that I maintained with powerheads and a heater. Occasionally, I fed with pellets and phytoplankton.
I aquascaped my new aquarium while using epoxy, superglue and mortar with rock being wet. It was very difficult.
Luckily, I started the new aquarium with rock added from the biocube. It was okay.
I then ordered a package of live rock, sand and other creatures from TBS. I don't regret it. I have caught nearly a dozen of gorilla crabs and now 2 mantis shrimp. I would keep them if I didn't spend so much money on fish and other CUCs to risk being eaten.

 

[adobo]

You bring up good points.

I know I'm biased since I've never set up a tank completely with dry, rarely dip frags, been reusing/swapping rocks from two different systems for 20 years.

I had ugly phases in my first reef set up with 50/50 dry and raw Fiji, it still had an ugly phase, GHA, possibly some cyano, cured in tank and took about two months for the ammonia and nitrites to zero. I was running lights at the time as well and doing WC's. siphoning as much rot as I could.

I feel that some teachings today are leaving your tank alone....keep your hands literally out of the tank and let stuff like cyano, etc, just do their thing. I agree to a point, but if the tank is unbalanced, too much or too less of X.....go ahead and fix it whether it is by over/underfeeding, flow, WC, etc, etc.

You know, I have no issues with people who swear by live rock. It's entirely likely that people who use live rock have generally better success throughout their experience. It's very plausible.

The thing I see in this thread and I've seen in other similar threads amounts to nothing more than hand waving. Saying that I have been doing this all my life and I swear by live rock - that is fine but that is not a discussion grounded in evidence. It's a discussion on personal preference and personal anecdote. Everyone who comes to this thread to find out the virtues of using live rock (like me) will walk away with what the loudest people do. They won't walk away with the tangible benefits of using live rock over dead rock.

It would be interesting to find out what people mean when they say "bio-diversity". I am sure if we ask each person who says they are after better bio-diversity, we will get different answers. And don't even bother asking what the benefits are of "better bio-diversity". Or asking how you quantify / measure how much bio-diversity you have. Or if you have enough.

 

[luhhrenegade]

Are there any recommendations as to the ratio of live rock to dry rock? I have a dry rock Structure going in my display tank And I plan to use live rock in the sump to seed it.

I have read that about a minimum of 10 lbs of live rock and 10 lbs of live sand should be sufficient for seeding a decent sized tank. It’s mostly about how much space you want to be filled with rock, and what kind of aquascape you want to do. And I guess if your different rock types look good together but you decide!

 

[schooncw]

You know, I have no issues with people who swear by live rock. It's entirely likely that people who use live rock have generally better success throughout their experience. It's very plausible.

The thing I see in this thread and I've seen in other similar threads amounts to nothing more than hand waving. Saying that I have been doing this all my life and I swear by live rock - that is fine but that is not a discussion grounded in evidence. It's a discussion on personal preference and personal anecdote. Everyone who comes to this thread to find out the virtues of using live rock (like me) will walk away with what the loudest people do. They won't walk away with the tangible benefits of using live rock over dead rock.

It would be interesting to find out what people mean when they say "bio-diversity". I am sure if we ask each person who says they are after better bio-diversity, we will get different answers. And don't even bother asking what the benefits are of "better bio-diversity". Or asking how you quantify / measure how much bio-diversity you have. Or if you have enough.

Do you really need an explanation of what "bio-diversity" means? Do you really need someone to explain why getting live rock, with a "diversity" of sponges, feather dusters, worms, coralline algae, beneficial bacteria strains, serpent and brittle stars, other inverts, etc., etc., are "tangible" benefits, that you can not find with "dead" rock?

 

[littlefishy]

The thing I see in this thread and I've seen in other similar threads amounts to nothing more than hand waving. Saying that I have been doing this all my life and I swear by live rock - that is fine but that is not a discussion grounded in evidence. It's a discussion on personal preference and personal anecdote. Everyone who comes to this thread to find out the virtues of using live rock (like me) will walk away with what the loudest people do.

What about the papers/chapters Timfish quoted? I like it when things are questioned, though. It's how we get better.

 

[adobo]

It's been at least 15 years since the last time I perused any of the Reef Aquarium books by Delbeek (<this is the correct spelling) and Sprung. It's entirely possible that the Reef Aquarium Vol.1 spells out what live rock is, what its virtues are over dead rock and so on. Or maybe one would have to read the material that the Reef Aquarium Vol.1 is referencing to get that information. And I don't think I ever read any of the Fossa/Nielsen books.

But given exactly what Timfish quoted:

Adding maricultured rock is essential, and it's not just my opinion, Nilsen and Fossa in their series "The Modern Reef Aquarium" state "Live rock is so important for the coral reef aquarium that we would like to deal with the subject in a chapter by itself" (Vol I, og 169) Delbeck and Sprung in Vol I of their series "The Reef Aquarium" point out in their discusion of live rock if done properly a balance system can be established in one day but it is best to be patient. Nilsen and Fossa also give a definition of live rock that would exclude most of what's advertised as live rock today. I haven't read through all the other posts so this may be redundant but Aquabiomic posted an article of a study showing the differences between dry rock, rock conditioned with bacteria and maricultured live rock and there were very clear benefits of the maricultured.

All Timfish is saying here is some people who wrote books say "live rock" is important. He did not include in his post how the authors arrived at that conclusion nor does he post as to what the benefits are. It's entirely possible that the supposed benefits can be achieved through other methods. Absent those details, its hard to say.

Let me give an imperfect analogy of how the discussion is going in this thread - one time I heard Neil deGrasse Tyson telling the story of how a "flat earther" acquaintance had extreme doubts about the notion of a spherical Earth.

• Mr. Tyson asked the man, "what would it take for you to believe that the Earth is round?"
• The man answered, "well, I trust you. If you say the Earth is round, I will believe it."
• To which, Mr. Tyson replied, "no, don't trust me. Trust my evidence."

The rest of the story was interesting in that after being told where to find the evidence he was asking for, reviewing the evidence, Mr. Tyson's acquaintance still claimed not to believe in a spherical Earth.

My point is, I am not one for believing what an expert says. Or what someone says an expert says. Or what someone has done all their lives. Or what a group of people do. I am one for believing what any person says (expert or layperson) when that person presents evidence that supports what they are saying.

And setting aside what "Aquabiomic" has posed in some other thread (which I haven't seen or read) - I haven't seen evidence in this thread. Just opinions from people who "have been doing this" all their lives. Not saying that people's extensive experience doesn't have value - it does. It's just not the same as presenting evidence.

 

[adobo]

Do you really need an explanation of what "bio-diversity" means? Do you really need someone to explain why getting live rock, with a "diversity" of sponges, feather dusters, worms, coralline algae, beneficial bacteria strains, serpent and brittle stars, other inverts, etc., etc., are "tangible" benefits, that you can not find with "dead" rock?

Well, I would put the question back to you - what is your intent? Is your intent to share knowledge and to illuminate on a subject that is clearly complex? If so, don't you feel compelled to explain what you mean when someone says they don't understand? Think of it this way, assume that everyone you are addressing is very new to reef tanks. Is it your assumption that this audience knows what you mean when you say bio-diversity is good? Or would it be better to assume that the audience doesn't know what you mean by bio-diversity? And that saying good is not enough for people to understand what those benefits are?

Personally, my intent is to gain knowledge. I ask questions. I say when something is not clear. If my incessant question asking and pointing out that answers are not supported by reference material is offensive and makes people uncomfortable, I apologize.

 

[SMSREEF]

And setting aside what "Aquabiomic" has posed in some other thread (which I haven't seen or read) - I haven't seen evidence in this thread. Just opinions from people who "have been doing this" all their lives.

People are just giving their experience trying to help other reefers out. This is a forum. If you want evidence and research, you should find it.

If you think it’s best to just use dry, go for it. Hopefully you will have a fantastic tank with it because your tank looks good in your build thread.

Dry only didn’t work for me, but my experience is anecdotal and certainly not evidence based.

 

[schooncw]

Well, I would put the question back to you - what is your intent? Is your intent to share knowledge and to illuminate on a subject that is clearly complex? If so, don't you feel compelled to explain what you mean when someone says they don't understand? Think of it this way, assume that everyone you are addressing is very new to reef tanks. Is it your assumption that this audience knows what you mean when you say bio-diversity is good? Or would it be better to assume that the audience doesn't know what you mean by bio-diversity? And that saying good is not enough for people to understand what those benefits are?

Personally, my intent is to gain knowledge. I ask questions. I say when something is not clear. If my incessant question asking and pointing out that answers are not supported by reference material is offensive and makes people uncomfortable, I apologize.

So, should I-or someone else on this thread- write a 10,000 word thesis? All of the information is out there, readily available with a few clicks of the mouse. Do you want a paragraph on what "bio-diversity" means? I bet that if you did a key word search on THIS forum, or reefcentral alone, that you would get reams of info. As far as live rock being beneficial-or not-again, there are reams and reams of opinion, reference material and information on this site itself.

 

[adobo]

So, should I-or someone else on this thread- write a 10,000 word thesis? All of the information is out there, readily available with a few clicks of the mouse. Do you want a paragraph on what "bio-diversity" means? I bet that if you did a key word search on THIS forum, or reefcentral alone, that you would get reams of info. As far as live rock being beneficial-or not-again, there are reams and reams of opinion, reference material and information on this site itself.

Again, this comes back to what your intent is in participating in this thread.

With regards to bio-diversity, for all I know you might be referring to fauna. You might be referring to flora. You might be referring to micro-organisms. You might be referring to good bacteria. You might be referring to bad bacteria. You might be referring to viruses. You might think that reef tanks that are absent of AEFWs, bristleworms, natural reef predators or even pathogens found in the ocean is lacking something. No idea what you mean when you are talking about bio-diversity.

If you want your point to be understood, then feel free to write a paragraph or a 10,000 word thesis. That's your choice. But if you are going to have such a strong opinion on a topic, you should anticipate that people will ask you why you have that opinion and you shouldn't feel so defensive when people aren't so open to just take your word for it.