Adding established fish to your display tank

[KevinC]

Let’s say you got a $1000 wrasse from an established “healthy” reef environment that it’s been in for 2 years, but the established reef does not QT their fish. As copper QT would probably cause more harm than good, would you add it directly to your display tank full of QT-Ed fish?

 

[Robertellis30]

That’s a tough question. Either way your potentially risking something. So do you risk the 1k fish or the rest of the fish in your system.

 

[andiesreef]

i wouldnt. i would try to build up the natural immunity of the fish in the dt before doing something like that.

 

[KevinC]

i wouldnt. i would try to build up the natural immunity of the fish in the dt before doing something like that.

How would they build up immunity if I have already 30 days copper qt-Ed the fish in my display tank to which I can assume it is disease free?

 

[andiesreef]

How would they build up immunity if I have already 30 days copper qt-Ed the fish in my display tank to which I can assume it is disease free?

Personally I follow a lot of Paul B's methods with great success. Essentially a combination of slowly introducing foods with live, beneficial gut bacteria and a range of other things to strengthen fish immunity in a relatively safe way, watching for indicators of fish health like breeding behavior and such, and then add in the non-QTed fish who have been exposed to a wider variety of bacteria into the system.

It's more complicated than that but that is what works for me. Adding in a non-QTed fish to a tank full of ones who have had no prior experience with disease being that they have all been QTed and medicated is a disaster waiting to happen imo.

 

[KevinC]

Personally I follow a lot of Paul B's methods with great success. Essentially a combination of slowly introducing foods with live, beneficial gut bacteria and a range of other things to strengthen fish immunity in a relatively safe way, watching for indicators of fish health like breeding behavior and such, and then add in the non-QTed fish who have been exposed to a wider variety of bacteria into the system.

It's more complicated than that but that is what works for me. Adding in a non-QTed fish to a tank full of ones who have had no prior experience with disease being that they have all been QTed and medicated is a disaster waiting to happen imo.

Interesting. I will look into that! Obviously, I’m leaning towards QT. But from my past experience with QT... boy I lost more fish than I lost Acros. I definitely see myself asking this question again when I’m going to buy angelfish.

 

[andiesreef]

Interesting. I will look into that! Obviously, I’m leaning towards QT. But from my past experience with QT... boy I lost more fish than I lost Acros. I definitely see myself asking this question again when I’m going to buy angelfish.

Honestly? I follow what makes sense to me. All the fish in the sea are exposed to parasites constantly. Some clowns even live in the same anenome their whole lives and they rarely succumb to ich. And many of these fish harbor parasites but they survive and thrive anyways. Imagine if velvet swept through a wild school of anthias like it does in our tanks. These fish have been exposed to bacteria and parasites their whole lives and learn to develop some sort of immunity- there is actually research out there about fish immune systems! Crazy right!

Anyways, in a QTed tank full of fish who have never been exposed to disease, the second one QT mistake happens or coral that was exposed to encysted ich enters the system the fish with weak immune systems are exposed to the pathogen and are wiped out. The theory goes that building up some natural immunity and carefully exposing them to fish carrying the parasites allows the fish immune systems to get better at protecting themselves against disease. But this only works if the fish are otherwise healthy and you don't keep fish that are sensitive to ich like achilles tangs.

The more "natural" method appealed to me personally as somebody who's a diver and loves wild fish and it just made more sense. But if QT makes more sense to you than go right ahead. You know your fish best!

 

[Squidward]

You should qurantine. You know what works. Don't take the risk of it spreading a disease into your display that you've worked hard qurantining. You can always do TTM. No copper is involved and only takes 12 days.

 

[Rmckoy]

How would they build up immunity if I have already 30 days copper qt-Ed the fish in my display tank to which I can assume it is disease free?

You dose copper in your DT ?

 

[mike89t]

Honestly? I follow what makes sense to me. All the fish in the sea are exposed to parasites constantly. Some clowns even live in the same anenome their whole lives and they rarely succumb to ich. And many of these fish harbor parasites but they survive and thrive anyways. Imagine if velvet swept through a wild school of anthias like it does in our tanks. These fish have been exposed to bacteria and parasites their whole lives and learn to develop some sort of immunity- there is actually research out there about fish immune systems! Crazy right!

Yes all fish in the sea are exposed to parasites.

However you are forgetting one important difference between the Ocean and a Tank.

The Ocean contains something like 352 quintillion gallons of water

Most tanks contain less than 100 gallons of water.

That mean the odds of a fish coming into contact with a parasite or disease are exponentially higher in a tank than out in the ocean. Once a fish is in your tank it has nowhere to hide from disease.

 

[KevinC]

You dose copper in your DT ?

no, all fish in my display are 30 days QT-Ed already.

 

[andiesreef]

Yes all fish in the sea are exposed to parasites.

However you are forgetting one important difference between the Ocean and a Tank.

The Ocean contains something like 352 quintillion gallons of water

Most tanks contain less than 100 gallons of water.

That mean the odds of a fish coming into contact with a parasite or disease are exponentially higher in a tank than out in the ocean. Once a fish is in your tank it has nowhere to hide from disease.

Yes, volume is a big difference and there is probably a higher quantity of pathogens in tanks run like mine vs the sea. But there are still some fish that stay in one spot their whole lives like clowns who may live in the same nem for years and years. And say they had ich. It would keep reproducing around them and yet there would be no reason for them to move or hide from the parasites encysted on the rocks and sand all around them that continually break free and swim back to the clowns. And many other fish live in a small area their whole lives where parasites like ich regardless of volume are able to keep coming out of the same patch of sand with little more than a spot on the fish.

And look at Paul B's tank. He runs it this way and it has been 50 years and it still looks stunning. There are also some other older tanks out there on R2R run with a similar methodology that thrive this way.

But if you trust QT, do it. I'm not trying to bash anybody on the methods they use, just trying to explain the justification for what works in my experience. If you wanna QT each fish and coral for 90 days and have had success, do it. If you throw fish into the tank straight from the LFS and that works, do it. Whatever works best.

 

[Jubei2006]

Honestly? I follow what makes sense to me. All the fish in the sea are exposed to parasites constantly. Some clowns even live in the same anenome their whole lives and they rarely succumb to ich. And many of these fish harbor parasites but they survive and thrive anyways. Imagine if velvet swept through a wild school of anthias like it does in our tanks. These fish have been exposed to bacteria and parasites their whole lives and learn to develop some sort of immunity- there is actually research out there about fish immune systems! Crazy right!

Anyways, in a QTed tank full of fish who have never been exposed to disease, the second one QT mistake happens or coral that was exposed to encysted ich enters the system the fish with weak immune systems are exposed to the pathogen and are wiped out. The theory goes that building up some natural immunity and carefully exposing them to fish carrying the parasites allows the fish immune systems to get better at protecting themselves against disease. But this only works if the fish are otherwise healthy and you don't keep fish that are sensitive to ich like achilles tangs.

The more "natural" method appealed to me personally as somebody who's a diver and loves wild fish and it just made more sense. But if QT makes more sense to you than go right ahead. You know your fish best!

But think how much water volume and cleansing there is in our tank vs the ocean, or even just their one square mile? The currents washing the parasites away. There is no way we can reduce it to that dilution of numbers. Instead we have a petri dish of a fish bowl with confined space where the parasites number are exponentially increasing.

 

[andiesreef]

But think how much water volume and cleansing there is in our tank vs the ocean, or even just their one square mile? The currents washing the parasites away. There is no way we can reduce it to that dilution of numbers. Instead we have a petri dish of a fish bowl with confined space where the parasites number are exponentially increasing.

Read my previous paragraph if you haven't because I talked about that a bit. And if done properly I believe fish immune systems can be supported to help keep parasite numbers down. Then again, in the sea there are all sorts of contaminants that barely affect fish. I've seen tanks run for years and years with this method with no crashes or disease outbreaks so there must be something keeping bacteria in check. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tcook]

There is no way I would dump any fish into my display without at least 30 day observation in my QT tank. I don't use copper unless I see something on the fish while in observation.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Let’s say you got a $1000 wrasse from an established “healthy” reef environment that it’s been in for 2 years, but the established reef does not QT their fish. As copper QT would probably cause more harm than good, would you add it directly to your display tank full of QT-Ed fish?

I quarantine everything, even post-quarantine fish from other public aquariums. Depending on the confidence I have in the health of the fish, I might abbreviate the process, but I always do something. However, you need to do a risk assessment of the incoming fish against the rest of your collection. In my case, I'm bringing new fish into 100,000 gallons of exhibits, so the risk is huge. In your case, a $1000 wrasse (what would that even be?) may be more valuable than the rest of your collection combined. Quarantines, even when done properly, are certainly not risk free.

Jay

 

[KevinC]

I quarantine everything, even post-quarantine fish from other public aquariums. Depending on the confidence I have in the health of the fish, I might abbreviate the process, but I always do something. However, you need to do a risk assessment of the incoming fish against the rest of your collection. In my case, I'm bringing new fish into 100,000 gallons of exhibits, so the risk is huge. In your case, a $1000 wrasse (what would that even be?) may be more valuable than the rest of your collection combined. Quarantines, even when done properly, are certainly not risk free.

Jay

by how much would you abbreviate the process? I just find it impossible to QT wrasse and angels for full 30 days. Things always go south during the process or after the qt. Honestly coming from a guy who have kept non qt fish for 6 years and recently started QT, I’m ashamed to say I have killed more fish (in value and number) by QT-ing it than leaving it be. Though I DID lost almost all fish in a ich outbreak months ago. I’m even planning to add in a conspicuous from pomalabs in the future!! Expensive fish just take the whole situation to another level

 

[Jubei2006]

Read my previous paragraph if you haven't because I talked about that a bit. And if done properly I believe fish immune systems can be supported to help keep parasite numbers down. Then again, in the sea there are all sorts of contaminants that barely affect fish. I've seen tanks run for years and years with this method with no crashes or disease outbreaks so there must be something keeping bacteria in check. Just my 2 cents.

I did read your paragraph, and I would still venture to guess that velvet and ich do not concentrate to anywhere near the population density in the wild as in our reefs. Obviously, fish can have some resistance to disease, but we still see posts daily where ich and velvet have overrun a tank. When have we seen a mass fish kill on the reefs due to velvet or ich?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

by how much would you abbreviate the process? I just find it impossible to QT wrasse and angels for full 30 days. Things always go south during the process or after the qt. Honestly coming from a guy who have kept non qt fish for 6 years and recently started QT, I’m ashamed to say I have killed more fish (in value and number) by QT-ing it than leaving it be. Though I DID lost almost all fish in a ich outbreak months ago. I’m even planning to add in a conspicuous from pomalabs in the future!! Expensive fish just take the whole situation to another level

My quarantine protocol is posted in the sticky section at the top of the fish disease section. By abbreviated, I mean I *might* cut some corners if the fish has a very good history. For example, just got a long term captive electric eel from another public aquarium. I chose to give it simply a 30 day observational quarantine, something I would never do with an eel from a commercial importer.
Jay

 

[KevinC]

My quarantine protocol is posted in the sticky section at the top of the fish disease section. By abbreviated, I mean I *might* cut some corners if the fish has a very good history. For example, just got a long term captive electric eel from another public aquarium. I chose to give it simply a 30 day observational quarantine, something I would never do with an eel from a commercial importer.
Jay

I have read about your post and the recent quarantine protocol posted back in April. Assuming if no white dots shows up by then, do I and should I, do a round of prazi? To deworm or something just in case?