Against all advice and better judgment

[lion king]

I'm not sure I understand your post. First, why do you not agree with the scientific studies that show treating for Ich works? Second, if your main concern is the eradication of parasites why don't you treat for ich, which is a parasite?

My personal belief from seeing fish treated prophetically with copper so many times I can't count, to end up with ick any way. And I believe the conclusions of friend that is a marine biologist, that says it doesn't work. If it works for you or makes you feel better, go for it.

 

[Brew12]

My personal belief from seeing fish treated prophetically with copper so many times I can't count to end up with ick any way.

I would caution against the thinking that just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean that it doesn't work. I would let the statement stand on its own. It didn't work for you.

And I believe the conclusions of friend that is a marine biologist that says it doesn't work.

There are many peer reviewed papers on this topic that I can't imagine a marine biologist rejecting that much "proven" science. Seeing as this has a major impact on raising fish for food this is one of the few aspects applicable to reef tanks where we there has been a lot of scientific research done. I would love it if your friend would post his professional opinion on why he disagrees with the previous work that has been done.

If it works for you or makes you feel better, go for it.

It has seemed to have worked for me. I am also a very detail oriented person and use much more stringent QT protocols than the average reefer is willing to use. But, that is just what I do.
I won't even say that prophylactic treatment is the best method. As careful as I am I have still lost more fish in QT than I care to think about. I do know that if done correctly, and good invert/coral QT practices are followed, you can keep Ich out of your tank. But, that comes at a cost.

I am a big fan of the information that @Paul B shares with the community and I feel it is the future of reefkeeping. No QT, but using high quality food and a low stress environment to boost a fishes natural immune system. Unfortunately, it isn't as easy as it sounds at first glance, either. That is why the fish disease section of the forums are full of people dealing with losing their fish in a tank wipe to things like Ich and Velvet.

The most important thing I feel hobbyists need to keep in mind if they want to avoid issues with Ich. Either go all out and QT everything or go all in with the natural immunity method. Don't treat most of your fish but decide Mandarins are too tough so just add them directly. Don't skip QT if you plan on feeding pellets or are trying to have a completely algae free "pristine" reef system with 6 tangs. Natural reefs don't have pellets and they are far from pristine.

 

[lion king]

If I can remember how it was explained to me, that at one stage of ich when it is not visible, copper is ineffective at eradicating it. I've been around a long time and these observations are not just from my personal tanks, but from many others and a few lfs.

 

[Brew12]

If I can remember how it was explained to me, that at one stage of ich when it is not visible, copper is ineffective at eradicating it. I've been around a long time and these observations are not just from my personal tanks, but from many others and a few lfs.

Actually, copper is considered "ineffective" for all but one stage, which is the short period from when it hatches to when it infects the fish. What is often left out is that long term copper exposure is effective at all stages. After around 16 days of copper exposure the encysted ich may still hatch but it will be unable to reproduce further.
This is why there are 2 effective methods for using copper. The first is to treat for 30 straight days. It feeds on the host fish for 2 to 7 days. If it encycsts on day 8, the 16 days gets you to 24 and the extra 6 days are a margin of error. The 2nd way is to treat for 10 days and transfer to a clean system (This is my preferred method). After day 7 everything on the fish is gone, the copper prevents re-infection, and you don't have to worry about waiting for the copper to damage the cysts.

I understand what you are saying as far as using QT and still having Ich. Unless you QT everything, including snails and corals for 72+ days, you can introduce ich into your system. This doesn't mean that QT can't be successful, just that it wasn't carried out completely correct. This factor, more than any other, is why I don't think that full QT is the way of the future. It causes a lot of risk at the front end and requires a lot of dedication to prevent introduction anyway.

 

[lion king]

And prolonged exposure to copper likely causes blindness and organ failure.

 

[Brew12]

And prolonged exposure to copper likely causes blindness and organ failure.

Higher levels can cause almost immediate death.

Copper works because it is a toxin. That is why we rely on the scientific community to provide guidance on how to use it. When used properly, fish have been known to live 15+ years after treatment with copper.

 

[madweazl]

I defy conventional wisdom in a few ways. Like most, I've never quarantined and put little faith in it's ability to be an affective tool. I've made it 20 years without a crash related to disease but that doesnt mean I havent lost fish to ich. In 2013 I introduced a McCosker's wrasse to the tank that showed symptoms of ich after a couple of days. He ended up jumping out of the tank and died (likely looking for better conditions).

I defy conventional wisdom in regard to lighting as well. I use a lot more "white" light than most. My LEDs are mounted five inches off the water instead of two feet to overcome shadows. I don't believe PAR levels need to be as high as some suggest for SPS.

We all do this in some capacity regardless of our intentions.

 

[lion king]

Higher levels can cause almost immediate death.

Copper works because it is a toxin. That is why we rely on the scientific community to provide guidance on how to use it. When used properly, fish have been known to live 15+ years after treatment with copper.

You are an exception, maybe considered an expert. Most hobbyist I meet can't even manage their own meds must less managing treating fish with toxic meds. Most will dose to instructions and never test, more times than not they lose more fish in qt than just taking their chances. I qt so I'm not against it, it's just a bit more complicated than a small glass cage with pvc and combo drug protocol. If someone doesn't understand that the temporary qt needs to adequate for the species and there are consequences of toxic med exposure, then qt becomes a death sentence. One large lfs here has told me on more than one occasion, that she sees people lose more in qt than not.

 

[Brew12]

You are an exception, maybe considered an expert. Most hobbyist I meet can't even manage their own meds must less managing treating fish with toxic meds. Most will dose to instructions and never test, more times than not they lose more fish in qt than just taking their chances. I qt so I'm not against it, it's just a bit more complicated than a small glass cage with pvc and combo drug protocol. If someone doesn't understand that the temporary qt needs to adequate for the species and there are consequences of toxic med exposure, then qt becomes a death sentence. One large lfs here has told me on more than one occasion, that she sees people lose more in qt than not.

I completely agree with this.

As I said earlier, I've lost more fish in QT than I care to think about. Some for known reasons, some unknown. The trade off is that I was able to move all my fish into plastic tubs, tear the system down, put in a new tank and add the fish back in 48 hours. That put a tremendous amount of stress on my fish but they all made it and never had a sign of ich. I doubt many people who don't do QT properly could pull that off. I didn't lose any fish when I had a return pump fail. I don't worry about a heater failing to turn on. So it is a trade off.

If I were to set up a new system from scratch, I doubt I would QT anything. I feel I have learned enough about how to maintain a stable tank to be successful that way. I'm also blessed enough to get the equipment I need to help ensure stability. I think I could be very successful doing it without the losses so often seen in QT.

 

[Sashaka]

This thread is certainly interesting-especially because I've been dealing with problems in several of my tanks since before last summer.

I admit that I QT most new arrivals and treat proactively with PraziPro as well as use medicated food (Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metroplex with FOCUS), and both these procedures were recommended by experts here at R2R. Before getting that sound advice, I would QT new arrivals in CopperPower. The exceptions to following these protocols were for my 3 ruby red dragonets (added directly to my 29 gal FOWLR) and my Mandarin, which was added directly to my softy BIOCUBE. I feel I got lucky when they were added to their respective tanks. In my large tanks, I've had nothing but heartache this past year with sick fish (See my past and current threads). Even after QT, proactively treating, and putting most fish through a month of CopperPower or CP treatments, I still have sick fish, and I have spent literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars on salt, equipment, and medications to run my QT tanks this year as well as more money spent to restock lost fish.

After reading through this thread, an ahh-ha moment occurred. When my 180gal finally cycled, I added my snails to the cycled tank, but I did not wait 72 days after adding the snails before adding my first QT fish. How dumb is that! It only takes one mistake to undo all the work and expense one expends to QT fish. I think unless one is never distracted by real life, QT can be very effective to prevent pathogens from entering a tank, but keeping the tank free of problems takes true dedication to daily/weekly/monthly routines and there can be no mistakes made. When problems happen (such as my skimmer problems or the lack of QT for my snails), it's easy to see why stress has decided to wreck havoc on the inhabitants of my tank.

Do QT, don't QT, medicate proactively, don't medicate proactively, never use medications... add garlic, garlic does not work... The list of how people care for their tanks goes on and on. It seems the only thing most reefers can agree upon is to keep the water quality good - often through frequent water changes. And so it is... Everyone must do what he/she feels is right for his/her setups and the bulk in his/her wallet/pocketbook.

For me, following sound scientific research seems right. The irritating thing for me is trying to wade through what is anecdotal and proven effective treatments via scientific research, so I try to follow the advice from people at R2R that have like methodical, scientifically based processes. I try to adopt preventative methods and treat active illness in my tanks using their procedures because I trust in their experience and expert opinions more than my own limited experience of about 3-4 years. If one is experienced and trusts his/her ability to know how to fix the issues that come along, than I'm very happy for that person. Truly! I hope to get there one day!

So, just why are there so many theories among experienced reefers about how to keep fish healthy in our tanks? I think it's human nature. When all is said and done, we follow the advice of people who think most like us because that advice is easily internalized and makes sense to us. But... once in a while, I must admit, I still fall victim to trying out the easiest "fix" (such as my current attempt to use Ruby Reef products) against negative reviews of the products or the expert advice I usually find value in following. I'm a dreamer, I guess. I still want to believe that someone, somewhere, will come up with the miracle product that...well, works!

 

[Brew12]

This thread is certainly interesting-especially because I've been dealing with problems in several of my tanks since before last summer.

I admit that I QT most new arrivals and treat proactively with PraziPro as well as use medicated food (Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metroplex with FOCUS), and both these procedures were recommended by experts here at R2R. Before getting that sound advice, I would QT new arrivals in CopperPower. The exceptions to following these protocols were for my 3 ruby red dragonets (added directly to my 29 gal FOWLR) and my Mandarin, which was added directly to my softy BIOCUBE. I feel I got lucky when they were added to their respective tanks. In my large tanks, I've had nothing but heartache this past year with sick fish (See my past and current threads). Even after QT, proactively treating, and putting most fish through a month of CopperPower or CP treatments, I still have sick fish, and I have spent literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars on salt, equipment, and medications to run my QT tanks this year as well as more money spent to restock lost fish.

After reading through this thread, an ahh-ha moment occurred. When my 180gal finally cycled, I added my snails to the cycled tank, but I did not wait 72 days after adding the snails before adding my first QT fish. How dumb is that! It only takes one mistake to undo all the work and expense one expends to QT fish. I think unless one is never distracted by real life, QT can be very effective to prevent pathogens from entering a tank, but keeping the tank free of problems takes true dedication to daily/weekly/monthly routines and there can be no mistakes made. When problems happen (such as my skimmer problems or the lack of QT for my snails), it's easy to see why stress has decided to wreck havoc on the inhabitants of my tank.

Do QT, don't QT, medicate proactively, don't medicate proactively, never use medications... add garlic, garlic does not work... The list of how people care for their tanks goes on and on. It seems the only thing most reefers can agree upon is to keep the water quality good - often through frequent water changes. And so it is... Everyone must do what he/she feels is right for his/her setups and the bulk in his/her wallet/pocketbook.

For me, following sound scientific research seems right. The irritating thing for me is trying to wade through what is anecdotal and proven effective treatments via scientific research, so I try to follow the advise from people at R2R that have like methodical, scientifically based processes. I try to adopt preventative methods and treat active illness in my tanks using their procedures because I trust in their experience and expert opinions more than my own limited experience of about 3-4 years. If one is experienced and trusts his/her ability to know how to fix the issues that come along, than I'm very happy for that person. Truly! I hope to get there one day!

So, just why are there so many theories among experienced reefers about how to keep fish healthy in our tanks? I think it's human nature. When all is said and done, we follow the advice of people who think most like us because that advice is easily internalized and makes sense to us. But... once in a while, I must admit, I still fall victim to trying out the easiest "fix" (such as my current attempt to use Ruby Reef products) against negative reviews of the products or the expert advice I usually find value in following. I'm a dreamer, I guess. I still want to believe that someone, somewhere, will come up with the miracle product that...well, works!

Excellent post!

I know I work hard to make sure I indicate when I am stating a scientific fact and an opinion or widely held belief. The other thing I put effort into is making sure I don't try and steer people into my way of doing things. Even though I QT and think more people should, I try to help people who want to try to rely on their fishes immune system.
I think there is such passionate disagreement on this topic for two reasons. First, there are scientific studies explaining exactly why each method can be effective. It's one of those times where there are two correct ways of doing something. Unfortunately, they are both much more difficult to carry out successfully than it would seem. Which leads to the second reason I feel there are such strong opinions on it. When it doesn't work the end result is dead fish which can be expensive and elicit a strong emotional response.
If you QT and have your fish wipe or lose a bunch in QT you are likely to be passionate that QT doesn't work. If you never QT'd and have had a tank wipe from either Velvet or Ich, you are more likely to think that everyone should QT. I feel the most important thing is to pick which way you want to go and do it to the best of your ability.

 

[Sashaka]

If you QT and have your fish wipe or lose a bunch in QT you are likely to be passionate that QT doesn't work. If you never QT'd and have had a tank wipe from either Velvet or Ich, you are more likely to think that everyone should QT. I feel the most important thing is to pick which way you want to go and do it to the best of your ability.

I totally agree. We are victims of (I mean influenced by) experiential learning in most things, not just reef keeping. Your examples show this point clearly and succinctly. Well said!

 

[Kactai]

Well, just a quick update on this. I got Ich on the powder blue tang.

Now on to figuring out a treatment with my whacky work schedule - 8 days away from home and 6 days at home.
I already created a new thread in the fish disease forum. Thanks for the lively discussion.

 

[saltyhog]

These days Ich is down the list of diseases I'm most concerned with. With Ich you have a little bit of time to treat the fish.....with velvet you usually have hours. I also don't buy in to the "stress" reason for not using a QT. Which sounds more stressful...being plopped in to a tank with a bunch of established fish and not having a place to sleep or being plopped in to a tank as the sole inhabitant with subdued lighting and no competition for food or hiding places?

I suspect a lot of the deaths that happen shortly after introduction are not due to what happens when they arrive at our house but what has already happened in route. Diseases that aren't always easy to see are very likely another reason for those deaths (see velvet).

With the ability to keep a couple of sponges in my sump baffles and the introduction of CP as a proven treatment for velvet and ich there is no need to maintain a QT long term. Using an over sized HOB filter with the sponges makes ammonia management pretty simple.

There are certainly examples of successful tanks that don't QT but you only have to read through the forum for a short while to realize there are many more examples of disasters that happen without QT.

 

[Kactai]

Well I chose copper treatment and it’s not going well at all. I’ve lost 2 of 6 fish so far with a third fish on deaths door (he has been removed from copper to try and save him)

I believe I rushed things and added copper to quickly to the systems after introducing the fish. I also believe I raised the concentrations of copper too quickly.

Treating fish is not as easy as it sounds and it’s heart breaking to loose fish. The mistakes I make the more I realize that patience is my biggest weakness and probably the most major cause of my failures in this hobby.

 

[Kactai]

Just an update on this thread. I’ve now lost fish to disease and to QT. It seems that they are just dying for me either way...

My previous tank had relatively no issues but this build is kicking my butt. Copper has now killed 5 fish. Two clowns are left and I’m left thinking Copper is not a great treatment. Time to try hypo....

 

[User1]

I'd wager some of the practices, or lack there of, change when one is talking about a fish costing them 100 dollars to let us say 4,000. Then adding that fish to a tank full of other expensive fish. I do not QT but can see the value in it. It is something I'm considering when I purchase a regal angel due to their difficult in acclimation and survival rate(s).

 

[Sashaka]

Just an update on this thread. I’ve now lost fish to disease and to QT. It seems that they are just dying for me either way...

My previous tank had relatively no issues but this build is kicking my ***. Copper has now killed 5 fish. Two clowns are left and I’m left thinking Copper is not a great treatment. Time to try hypo....

Kactai, I'm very sorry for your loss. Believe me, I've been there!

Using copper does take some careful planning. It is a poison after all. Copper can be a very effective treatment for ich and velvet if you ramp the dosage up over several hours or days, depending on the sensitivity of the fish. I prefer using Copper Power as IMO it has the most consistent levels of copper and most fish tolerate it fairly well. The most important thing to remember is that copper levels must be checked several times a day. I check morning and night to make sure the levels are at medicinal levels and not at damaging or lethal levels. There is the possibility as you said that your sick tank practices were the cause of the deaths. It could also be the fish were too far gone before you started the treatment or a combination of both. CP is my preferred treatment for ich and velvet, but it is hard to get. BTW, hypo does not work on velvet. Are you sure you have ick? Velvet is VERY common in the hobby and it can kill quickly if treatment is not started right away.

Check out @HotRocks' s thread at : https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...instruments-high-range-copper-checker.368943/ The Hanna high range copper checker works great and is easy to use. The investment is well worth it for the health of our fish during treatment. Good luck!

 

[Brew12]

Just an update on this thread. I’ve now lost fish to disease and to QT. It seems that they are just dying for me either way...

My previous tank had relatively no issues but this build is kicking my ***. Copper has now killed 5 fish. Two clowns are left and I’m left thinking Copper is not a great treatment. Time to try hypo....

I'm sorry you are struggling. Loosing fish in QT happens to me, too. I still do it because I like knowing the fish are safe once in my DT. Hypo won't work on some forms of Ich or on Velvet so I wouldn't recommend it as a general QT practice.

Most fish do well with Cloroquine Phosphate which is much gentler than copper on everything other than wrasses and anthias. Well, and the Hippo Tang.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/

 

[ca1ore]

I think whether one quarantines or not is a personal choice. These threads always seem to focus on ich. OK, it's the most common 'communicable' disease problem, but in many cases it can be managed. There are far worse things out there including, but not limited to, velvet and uronema. You most definately don't want uronema in your tank. In the last few years I have had it three times in QT. Done properly, QT is also a really good way to get a new fish eating.

I always ask folks that don't do QT to show me their fish population ..... few actually do LOL.