Algae issues? Why dont more people use algae scrubbers?

[Thales]

I figured we agree on quite a bit! I think that we agree on nearly everything except the “mechanism” for explaining ATS/refugium success/failures.



I trust your, and others’, experience with the reality of refugiums and ATS. It appears, like most things, that there is mixed success; some who see it working and some who don't. Truthfully, I have no skin in the game for whether they work or not, but as part of this discussion, I very much care that we get the mechanism right!

Get ready for disappointment! There is very little science being done and presented around ATS - and most of that is from people that disagree with some claims. Which is backwards in my view . The people making the claims should be supporting the claims. All to often, this is not the case. Marketing claims sound sciency, and there is great access to researchers and pubic aquarists in our hobby, but that doesn't mean that hobby science is being done. Marketing claims people want to be true because they claim to make the hobby easy get accepted based mostly on a idea of why they might work and a few testamonials (while testamonials of non support are ignored or dismissed), arguments as to why those claims may be problematic get met with outright anger. It gets old being told that I should do more science or shut up, when the initial science around a product is so lacking. There is also virtually no data about ATS in aquaria.

There is an extreme benefit to merging experience with theory, because the experience tells you what actually happens, and the theory explains how/why and provides models, which can be used to obtain novel results. We need both.

Yes. I would push on the people making the product and saying what it does to explain and support their theories and claims.

In this instance, my understanding of your model is that ATSs can't affect algae growth in DTs and that conditions that can grow corals can always grow algae. Presumably, this leads you and others to not use ATSs for this purpose.

Not really, though that has been much of what this discussion has been about.
I don't see complelling evidence to support the idea that if you grow algae in one place in an aquarium system that it stops algal growth in another part of the system. I also don't see compelling theoritical evidence that algae growing in one part of the system can remediate an algae problem in another part of the system - that is not what happens at all on wild reefs, and algae is not 'filtration' for wild reefs. Additionally, I don't see compellling evidence that low 'nutrients', mostly people talk about nitrate and phosphate, are necessary for a reef tank or that they contribute to faster growth of algae in peoples tanks. Talks and articles are online, they lay out what I think and why, and some more recent stuff is directly about algae management in our tanks, and lay out evidence for why if photosynthetic corals can grow, algae can grow. R2R sometimes gets grumpy when I link stuff, so I can't link them for you but my website is in my sig if you are interested.
I don't use ATS mostly because I don't see a need to lower nitrate and phosphae and I don't have algae problems. When I have used ATS, and have done everything the people making the ATS have told me to do, the results are not what they said they would be - and then I get told that I have to set up the ATS differently. After making those changes, it still doesn't do much, I get told to do it differently yet again. This is more work than I think is reasonable to try to support someone else's claim about their product, espically when the central claim of the product seems to revolve around how easy it is to use. My testimonial about ATS, and others that have similar experiences, are largely ignored, even though there seem to be at least equal amounts of both testimonials.
I don't feel the need to make the changes in my system that most ATS makers say folks need to make, testing more products who's claims don't seem well supported beyond testamonials isn't that attractive to me. It's been at least 15 years (close enough) since ATS were introduced, and I think there should be more support for the claims by now. I am friends with one ATS maker that has been doing a lot of good science around ATS (he does not make the post hoc propter hoc claim that his units will stop algae from growing in other parts of the system), so I think about trying one of his units from time to time, but since I don't need to 'fix' my nirtate and phosphate levels, I don't have an algae problem, I have trouble wanting to spend the money and time on an ATS....again.

Hope your Monday is going well!

 

[jda]

Wow.
Unless you are talking about some kind of uncommon algae, yes, I have had horrible algae issues. Hence the details of my question in the first place. And none of the "common" solutions worked for me for as long as the ATS has.

You are almost there. Take that extra step... which is that you never really had a nasty type of algae, just bad ways of dealing with what you had. If you had that nasty algae you might still have it or would have posted about some extreme steps necessary to eradicate it like chemicals (yuck!), armies of urchins (like 1 per gallon), etc.

 

[VintageReefer]

Why do you think that only fish eat algae? What do you define as a herbivorous fish?

Any fish that will eat algae!

i had a hair algae outbreak, when my turf scrubbers air pump died for a few weeks, and my rocks became covered in thick hair algae. I replaced the air pump, and the algae died off naturally over the next few weeks.

I don’t think my three cardinal fish did anything to help, they simply show no interest in picking at rocks or algae. my small clean up crew has no interest in hair algae or they wouldn’t have allowed it to grow in the first place.

Fixing the scrubber fixed the algae and it hasn’t returned. 2 years no water change and no skimmer. Display is algae free as long as the scrubber is working

 

[VintageReefer]

Many many people run normal refugiums with chaeto for the sole purpose of reducing nutrients in an attempt to reduce or eliminate display algae. I don’t see anyone jumping down their backs telling them how a chaeto reactor or chaeto refugium won’t help them in their goals

Maybe I’m missing something but what’s the difference in principle ?

Growing chaeto in a refugium = great idea! We love ours! Helps with nutrient control! Yes set one up it’s the best thing ever

Growing turf algae in a scrubber = it won’t help, it doesn’t work, you can’t feed it to fish (can’t feed chaeto either…), it’s stupid!

I’ve been using scrubbers for 10 years on multiple reefs and know for a fact if setup correct and sized correct they work and there are tons of people that swear by them also

 

[Thales]

Many many people run normal refugiums with chaeto for the sole purpose of reducing nutrients in an attempt to reduce or eliminate display algae. I don’t see anyone jumping down their backs telling them how a chaeto reactor or chaeto refugium won’t help them in their goals

I disagree that people are 'jumping down anyones backs' here (and am always suprised when disagreement gets cast as nefarious), but yes, the same ideas being discussed here are discussed in regards to refugiums - more so actually. No one is searching forums to find these discussions to take algae people down, we see threads pop up and sometimes we participate, sometimes not.

I’ve been using scrubbers for 10 years on multiple reefs and know for a fact if setup correct and sized correct they work and there are tons of people that swear by them also

At the same time, tons of people swear that they don't work. What is a reefer to do in the absence of data?

 

[VintageReefer]

Glad to hear. As long as it’s an open discussion

One must keep in mind that:
One persons negative experience does not diminish or negate another persons positive experience. The inverse of this is also true.

Clearly there is more to be learned, and from my experience and discussions, it seems they are extremely beneficial in some situations and not really helpful in others.

Even if it does not help certain tough or unique situations, they still are providing other tank benefits, they don’t cause harm, and those situations would require specialized steps to resolve anyway

 

[Reefering1]

Glad to hear. As long as it’s an open discussion

One must keep in mind that:
One persons negative experience does not diminish or negate another persons positive experience. The inverse of this is also true.

Clearly there is more to be learned, and from my experience and discussions, it seems they are extremely beneficial in some situations and not really helpful in others.

Even if it does not help certain tough or unique situations, they still are providing other tank benefits, they don’t cause harm, and those situations would require specialized steps to resolve anyway

The goal of these discussions is to figure out why it seems to work sometimes and not other times..

 

[VintageReefer]

Ok. For me it eliminated typical hair algae. We know hair algae can grow both in low nutrient environments and high nutrient environments. The theory always was that excess nutrients + light + water flow causes it. And to reduce naturally we needed to reduce nutrients like phosphates primarily.

Yet - there are people with high phosphates that don’t get hair algae. This is commonly credited to an abundance of algae grazers such as urchins, herbivorous fish, snails, crabs, etc

There are people with low phosphates that still get hair algae. The therory for this is that the readings are false and the rocks and sand are phosphate bound, and algae is growing on the phosphate bound rock but the testing we do tests the water which may have much lower phosphate than the rock itself

So I don’t think the real question is behind the scrubber. We know what it does and doesn’t do. More needs to be understood about the cause of the algae problems being experienced to determine if it is a valid method to combat them

 

[ScubaSkeets]

You are almost there. Take that extra step... which is that you never really had a nasty type of algae, just bad ways of dealing with what you had. If you had that nasty algae you might still have it or would have posted about some extreme steps necessary to eradicate it like chemicals (yuck!), armies of urchins (like

Get over yourself man.
You have NO IDEA what kind of algae or other problems that I have had. There are PLENTY of threads on how to reduce the most common algae problems. I didn't feel the need to ask.
I'm assuming we are talking about the most common algae, but maybe you have some kind of super-duper special kind of algae that only applies to a select few, including yourself.

If you had that nasty algae you might still have it or would have posted about some extreme steps necessary to eradicate it like chemicals (yuck!), armies of urchins (like 1 per gallon), etc.

Now, before or anyone else starts jumping conclusions (which seems VERY common here) I will preface my next point by saying it has nothing to do with me thinking it was the ATS that fixed it. In fact my ATS wasn't even in my thought process at the time...

Anyway, this was my tank on September 4, 2023.

I can speculate that it was caused by an overdose of Reef Roids (what an inexperienced idiot I am, huh?) which was confirmed as a possibility by my LFS.

Did I jump on here and ask how to fix it? No.
Why? Because I would get the same suggestions and/or questions that people provide, ad nauseum.
1. "What are you nutrient levels?"
2. "You need to a waterchange"
2.5 "use a turkey baster to blow it all off"
2.6 "you need to manually remove as much as you can"
3. "You need to look at it under a microscope to identify it"
4. "What size tank do you have?"
5. "What fish do you have?"
6. "Need to raise the phosphates/nitrates"
7. "Need to lower the phosphates/nitrates"
8. "Looks like___"(fill in the blank)
9. "No, it looks more like___ "(fill in the blank)
10. "Have you checked your TDS?"
11. Etc.
12. Etc.

All fine, good questions, but nothing I didn't already know..even though I "lack the self awareness and knowledge of the situation".

But hey you're the extra special reefing expert...surely you would have given me some of that extra important "jda-solution" like chemicals(yuck!) and armies of urchins, right?

 

[Thales]

Average nitrate on a wild reef < .2ppm. Average phosphate of a wild reef < .03ppm. Algae grows there just fine.

 

[rtparty]

That’s chyrosphytes or Dinos. Take your pick. The solution is the same for both. And yes, scrubbing the rocks and sucking it out is a great start. Sometimes we, the hobbyist, must be the top predator in our tank. The top herbivore. The number one exporter. Pick a name you like.

 

[ScubaSkeets]

That’s chyrosphytes or Dinos. Take your pick. The solution is the same for both. And yes, scrubbing the rocks and sucking it out is a great start. Sometimes we, the hobbyist, must be the top predator in our tank. The top herbivore. The number one exporter. Pick a name you like.

Thanks. I know. However it wasn't really the point of my post. (And please don't take that as sarcasm) The tank is fine now. This is that same GSP taken just now

 

[Seansea]

Man this is getting hot over a peice of fish tank filtration. I love it

And the theory that algae wont grow in one specific place is junk. Go to any marina and see hair algae growing right on the dock piles where the light is pounding water is shallow and stagnant and the water is big time nutrient rich. Then go a mile off shore to the reef and i see none where water is turbulent, nutrients are lower sun has to penetrate further. Yet its all one big body of water. The dying reefs i have been too close to shore are the ones riddled with hair algae from human waste run off.

 

[Troylee]

Don’t use one and don’t need one lol! Never had a problem with algae in any of my tanks.. I run nothing but a skimmer on my tanks and keep up with carbon dosing and water changes…. It works for me and many others to keep everything in check.. I can place dry rock in my tank and it’s purple within 4-6 weeks and no “ugly phase”

 

[ScubaSkeets]

I'm not posting this to support my thought that they work in aquariums, but this is a pretty interesting video on large scale turf scrubbers

 

[jason2459]

I have to say the best thing I did to remove bryopsis and "hair algae" from my display is start supplying a carbon source for bacteria. I first started with bio pellets

Shapelock DIY N/P reducing Pellets or Nuking the tank...

Figure I'd start up a thread on something I'm trying out and track the results. Better then continuing to side track this thread where the idea got started: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1766100 To start off I did a 24hour soak of 250g of Shapelock in Vinegar. Then...

forums.reefcentral.com

Then I got into vinegar dosing. A short stint of vodka/vinegar. Then back to and currently use vinegar.

But like an ATS it was/is a tool that I and many used/use. It's also not foolproof or perfect.

My tank really seemed to be "complete" when I introduced the Turbo Aquatics ATS I linked to above in I think it was 2015.

Between AWC, carbon dosing, skimmer, and an ATS I found what worked for my tank and my willingness to maintain. I didn't have to deal with any other phosphate removal tools and was able to increase my feedings successfully. Though recently I've reduced my vinegar dosing amount and removed my skimmer to add a 2nd ATS to see what happens. So far, all that's happened is excellent growth of algae on both screens.

Again, the best methods are those we can maintain long term consistently.

 

[GARRIGA]

BRS did an experiment where Fuge lighting competed with display lighting and if I recall correctly that was a solution to keeping or reducing DT algae. Can't find the video but I'm sure others have seen it. Logically seemed valid since that exposed to higher PAR should out-compete. Simple enough for anyone to try especially since an ATS has the blurple lighting maximizing power where beneficial and very close to the algae. Run it 24/7. Add another. Go oversize. Lots of options. Even if it's not scientifically conclusive as to why display algae vanished there is the greatly appreciated benefit that it did. You'd think the manufacturers of these often expensive drip trays would have already.

Have an IM 18w light arriving this week and will test that but with a small Fuge to see how it performs. Only way to know if it's effective even if it's not done in such a way as to bring conclusive scientific proof. In the end. I just want it to work. Anecdotal validation more than good enough.

 

[ctopherl]

When people post about algae issues, most suggestions are to get a clean-up crew (two orders from reefcleaners didn't help me), manual removal (easier said than done and it's not going to remove all of the algae plus it'll probably just grow back), or chemicals (I tried Vibrant and it didn't work, and who really wants to add chemicals anyway?), or a blackout (two blackouts temporarily worked for me, but I doubt my fish/corals enjoyed them very much and waiting those 3 days without really knowing whats going on kinda sucked) There are other suggestions but I think these are the top ones.
Enter an algae scrubber. I put a DIY algae scrubber in my sump about 2 months ago, and my tank is virtually algae free with no signs of it reappearing. My nutrients are good (Nitrates @ 1.0-2.5; Phosphates @ 0.05-0.08). I have a heavily stocked tank and I keep my fish well fed.
It seems that most people that have an algae scrubber swear by them, so why are they not used more?
Is it the cost? Store bought ones are a huge expense, especially not seeing the results with your own eyes. My DIY scrubber probably cost less than $80 and it is probably the best the best thing I have done with my tank

What kind of algae? Wondering if this would help across multiple kinds or just GHA/turf type algaes

 

[rtparty]

Man this is getting hot over a peice of fish tank filtration. I love it

And the theory that algae wont grow in one specific place is junk. Go to any marina and see hair algae growing right on the dock piles where the light is pounding water is shallow and stagnant and the water is big time nutrient rich. Then go a mile off shore to the reef and i see none where water is turbulent, nutrients are lower sun has to penetrate further. Yet its all one big body of water. The dying reefs i have been too close to shore are the ones riddled with hair algae from human waste run off.

The ocean and our systems aren't comparable in so many ways it makes it a moot point to ever say "but in the ocean!!!"

 

[ScubaSkeets]

Update with pics of screen and DT. Taken just now