Algae issues? Why dont more people use algae scrubbers?

That is not true at all from what I know. @Thales is right... growth limit algae and growth limit photosynthetic corals.

Take iron:


I cannot think of a single element that is necessary for algae that is not for corals. I do not know them all, so perhaps there is one that I don't know about or forgot. ...physics, I guess.

There's a difference between necessary and sufficient.

Heres an example: Why do people try 3 day blackouts for their tanks? Light is "necessary" for both algae and corals. But 3 days of darkness isn't sufficient for their growth.

Yes, this is physics.
 
Again, this is all about comparative advantages. I'm not arguing experience. I'm arguing that comparative advantages exist lol
 
One advantage is the type of algae that’s grown. We all know there are various natural plants for algae removal - mangroves, chaeto, and various macros. We know that some work better than others and some have different needs

An advantage to the scrubber is turf/slime algae. chaeto algae does not have as much chlorophyll as green hair or slime algae, and therefore cannot do photosynthetic filtration as fast. So it generally takes 5 times as much chaeto to filter the same nutrients as green hair or slime algae

Scrubbers have narrow spectrum , focused red light which is centimeters away and high intensity, in an enclosure, with ideal water flow speeds and surfaces for algae to attach and grow on. Some scrubbers led systems have 1000 par of red lighting in a narrow 6” area. The entire scrubber is designed with a purpose - harbor and grow turf algae
 
There's a difference between necessary and sufficient.

Heres an example: Why do people try 3 day blackouts for their tanks? Light is "necessary" for both algae and corals. But 3 days of darkness isn't sufficient for their growth.

Yes, this is physics.
3 day blackout has never had an impact for me when I have tried this years ago. Maybe it works for others but it didn’t for me
 
3 day blackout has never had an impact for me when I have tried this years ago. Maybe it works for others but it didn’t for me
YMMV, but based on your other comments I think we're in agreement on the idea of comparative advantages lol
 
Argue if you want that there’s more than one way to sink a ship. I agree. I won’t tell you your alternate methods are wrong or don’t work

But you absolutely can not tell me that a scrubber doesn’t work in many situations when it comes to reducing display tank algae.
 
Blue lights, low iron for one.
What blue lights and what coral grown under them?
How low iron and what corals grow in that condition?

There are other nutrients that algae needs that can get depleted that corals seem fine without too
What nutriets and at what levels?

Thanks
 
Last edited:
Here is the best proof I can offer. Look at my sump pic. Why is algae growing in the scrubber and not on the tons of live rock inches away.

One spot thriving healthy green algae. Then right outside the scrubber. Zero algae

Also most my tank rock is covered in corals but here are pics of my sand bed and a display rock exposed section. No algae. Does my tank grow algae? Of course. In the scrubber

Zero water changes in probably 3 years now. No skimmer. No additives. The only way I have any nutrient control for the water is the scrubber. And I sometimes need to add phosphates or nitrates to keep numbers up.

Sure other methods work but when I see stuff like it’s impossible to make the scrubber more desirable for algae than the display or “how can it only grow in the scrubber it doesn’t make sense” I just want to say this is complete ignorance

860500AD-79C0-4648-A488-B9C6149EE91A.jpeg 2052193C-EC87-4871-9032-5221C2245407.jpeg 4DB1C820-A600-4814-9329-6B07A74C3530.jpeg 5480FCB5-3699-45E2-A1EA-127E9BB562D5.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Not sure what's being argued around iron but I like dosing it and so does my algae and others.

It's also fun to make
 
For what it’s worth, to get decent scrubber growth in a mature aquarium it’s important to disrupt algal succession and scrubber screen maturity, as well as keeping it away from tiny and large algae munchers. This is a metal 14000k 150w halide horizontal screen with regular cleaning and disruption then another vid allowing it to mature, same light, same everything;
 
Last edited:
What blue lights and what coral grown under them?
How low iron and what corals grow in that condition?


What nutriets and at what levels?

Thanks

Various Types of Corals and algae have different photosynthetic needs as well as metabolism of micro/macro nutrients. But this is the basis of the comparative advantage. I'm not trying to harp on iron (the original discussion is on how algae can grown in one place and not another, which is because of comparative advantages) but I'll continue with the iron example for now

Iron is necessary for both green algaes and zooxanthellae inside of corals. It's also extremely limited in ocean waters, often far scarcer than copper. fun facts: 1) many marine microbes have adapted to not use iron-based biochemistry, such as ammonia oxidizing archaea, which have a copper based biochemistry, 2) microbes that do use iron often have elaborate iron sequestering mechanisms, such as one of my faves, siderophores, which actually leave cells and grab necessary ions, then return them to the cell!! Needless to say, the competition strategies for iron (and other nutrients) can be elaborate and are still being understood. That said, iron is generally accepted to be more vital to green algaes evidenced by their genomes containing more iron-containing proteins and enzymes (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296057/). Additionally there have been a number of studies that add iron to the ocean waters to observe the extent of algae blooms, which show that it is a limiting resource (https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1131669). I'm assuming there wasn't a coral bloom along with it lol. In fact, some zooxanthellae are able to survive in *extremely* low iron environments, like Symbiodinium necroappetens, which are even found in bleached corals!

But to the main point, iron deficiencies can hurt both coral and algae. The idea of comparative advantages is: which gets hurt more?? With sufficient iron, it appears that algae can outcompete corals. This might indicate that lowering iron to just above the threshold of corals dying would give you the best comparative advantage and largest coral/algae growth ratio (for clarification, if possible to even dial this in, I'm NOT suggesting to do this, just giving the extreme scenarios)

Again backing up to the actual discussion, as to why algae can grow in one place over another (it's not iron in this case), it's the advantage of light that is optimized for algae growth. Reiterating, if certain nutrients are scarce (i.e. iron or anything that is important for the organisms growth) the algae with the advantage will grow faster and preferably soak up those scarce nutrients. An important point is that we don't even need to know all the nutrients because the same type of algae is competing with itself in another location, almost guaranteeing that it is using the same necessary resources. This argument isn't even about biology, it's physical and deals with probabilistic landscapes. I'll also reiterate that there are a lot of factors at play in anyone's personal tank, but the above is a nice first order approximation (also just the basic idea of a refugium/ATS as a nutrient export lol).

Someday when your tank matures and you have a bit more experience and you figure out that everything that a dude who ran one of the largest reefs in captivity for a living, as well as reefers with more experience than you, was correct... have the guts to come back on here and let us know that you were wrong. Until then just remember some when/if the algae grows in your display as well as your fuge/ATS/whatever.

What you are looking for is biology and not physics.


And since we're throwing around credentials in this thread, I'll say that I have a Masters in biochemical engineering and a PhD in molecular biophysics (though if you ask me, this doesn't actually matter since it's the argument that should hold weight, not the credentials).
 
Various Types of Corals and algae have different photosynthetic needs as well as metabolism of micro/macro nutrients. But this is the basis of the comparative advantage. I'm not trying to harp on iron (the original discussion is on how algae can grown in one place and not another, which is because of comparative advantages) but I'll continue with the iron example for now

Iron is necessary for both green algaes and zooxanthellae inside of corals. It's also extremely limited in ocean waters, often far scarcer than copper. fun facts: 1) many marine microbes have adapted to not use iron-based biochemistry, such as ammonia oxidizing archaea, which have a copper based biochemistry, 2) microbes that do use iron often have elaborate iron sequestering mechanisms, such as one of my faves, siderophores, which actually leave cells and grab necessary ions, then return them to the cell!! Needless to say, the competition strategies for iron (and other nutrients) can be elaborate and are still being understood. That said, iron is generally accepted to be more vital to green algaes evidenced by their genomes containing more iron-containing proteins and enzymes (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296057/). Additionally there have been a number of studies that add iron to the ocean waters to observe the extent of algae blooms, which show that it is a limiting resource (https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1131669). I'm assuming there wasn't a coral bloom along with it lol. In fact, some zooxanthellae are able to survive in *extremely* low iron environments, like Symbiodinium necroappetens, which are even found in bleached corals!

But to the main point, iron deficiencies can hurt both coral and algae. The idea of comparative advantages is: which gets hurt more?? With sufficient iron, it appears that algae can outcompete corals. This might indicate that lowering iron to just above the threshold of corals dying would give you the best comparative advantage and largest coral/algae growth ratio (for clarification, if possible to even dial this in, I'm NOT suggesting to do this, just giving the extreme scenarios)

Again backing up to the actual discussion, as to why algae can grow in one place over another (it's not iron in this case), it's the advantage of light that is optimized for algae growth. Reiterating, if certain nutrients are scarce (i.e. iron or anything that is important for the organisms growth) the algae with the advantage will grow faster and preferably soak up those scarce nutrients. An important point is that we don't even need to know all the nutrients because the same type of algae is competing with itself in another location, almost guaranteeing that it is using the same necessary resources. This argument isn't even about biology, it's physical and deals with probabilistic landscapes. I'll also reiterate that there are a lot of factors at play in anyone's personal tank, but the above is a nice first order approximation (also just the basic idea of a refugium/ATS as a nutrient export lol).




And since we're throwing around credentials in this thread, I'll say that I have a Masters in biochemical engineering and a PhD in molecular biophysics (though if you ask me, this doesn't actually matter since it's the argument that should hold weight, not the credentials).
I was hoping for more direct and practical answers.
 
And since we're throwing around credentials in this thread, I'll say that I have a Masters in biochemical engineering and a PhD in molecular biophysics (though if you ask me, this doesn't actually matter since it's the argument that should hold weight, not the credentials).
BRAVO!!!
 
I wonder how many of the "anti-scrubbers" have actually TRIED one.

If you have tried one and it didn't work, that's one thing, and I can respect that. Two huge CUCs from reefcleaners as well as purchasing snails and crabs from LFSs didn't work for me, but you're not going to hear me say that it does straight up does not work, period.

However, if you've never tried one and you STILL knock it, well, that's another thing.

I'm williing to make a wager that most of you are in the latter group
 
I wonder how many of the "anti-scrubbers" have actually TRIED one.

If you have tried one and it didn't work, that's one thing, and I can respect that. Two huge CUCs from reefcleaners as well as purchasing snails and crabs from LFSs didn't work for me, but you're not going to hear me say that it does straight up does not work, period.

However, if you've never tried one and you STILL knock it, well, that's another thing.

I'm williing to make a wager that most of you are in the latter group
That was a point I was trying to make earlier

Additionally I found this research from algaescrubber.net comparing a scrubber to chaeto:

“Production within dense mats of the filamentous macroalga Chaetomorpha linum in relation to light and nutrient availability"

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/134/m134p207.pdf

This is a good study, because chaeto is familiar, and because some people consider putting it in a refugium instead of using a scrubber.

Fig 5B shows how, under bright light, chaeto productivity (filtering) drops 72 percent with just 2 cm of chaeto thickness.

With algae scrubbers, however, the green hair filaments are very thin, and translucent, so light and flow spread throughout the algae, thus maximizing filtering. No part of the algae is "on the dark side of the growth" like it is on almost all parts of chaeto.

Also, algae scrubbers utilize a turbulent air/water interface that strips away the boundary layer around the algal strands, again maximizing nutrients into the algae and thus filtration. This was discovered by Walter Adey and included in his designs. Chaeto has no such air/water interface and thus can't get nutrients into it's tissue very fast.

Thus algae scrubbers as a category always filter more than chaeto, and will kill chaeto if in the same system.
 
And found This also

Reef tanks need to have nutrients removed, and minerals added for coral growth, but also need lots of dissolved and particulate food in the water to feed the corals. So an algae scrubber fits the bill perfectly, by reducing nitrate and phosphate, and by not removing food from the water (Cal, Alk, and Mag are still added as needed). And in addition to the algae being eaten by the fish, the algae actually add dissolved food to the water in the form of glucose, vitamins and amino acids, that you would normally need to buy and dosing anyway.
 

I don't watch videos unless there's a strong reason. Takes too long. What is the point?

I fully understand what both algae and skimmers can accomplish and not accomplish and see little reason that one replaces the other in either direction. :)
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
Back
Top