Algae issues? Why dont more people use algae scrubbers?

[VintageReefer]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I read this on algaescrubber.net, I trust and value your opinion and am curious if you find it true or false:

The easiest way to compare scrubbers to skimmers is to think about food. Food is "organic" and should not to be confused with human food "organic non-gmo food etc" that you eat.

Nutrients, However are "inorganic", and should not be confused with human food nutrients that you eat.

Scrubbers remove inorganics from the water: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, CO2, copper, etc, but do not remove food particles.

Scrubbers add organics to the water: Glucose, amino acids, vitamin C, etc. Oxygen and copepods too.

Protein skimmers, however, do the opposite. That's why they have the word "protein" in the name.

Skimmers remove food particles and copepods from the water, but do not remove ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, CO2, copper, etc.

Skimmers add oxygen to the water.

So the only thing in common is that scrubbers and skimmers both add oxygen to the water.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Not totally different at all

lol

No, not totally, but cars and houses are also not totally different. Both provide shelter and environmental controls and some folks live in each. They just have other important differences, like skimmers and algae do.

If you are going to push that point, I will point out what the important differences are:

1. Skimmers oxygenate 24/7, whereas algae only oxygenates when lit.

2. Skimmers remove organics of many sorts and is obviously a net export of organic matter, including toxic compounds such as organotin compounds released from plastics. Algae adds organic matter.

3. Algae will add CO2 to the water when not lit, and use it when lit. Skimmers help equilibrate the water with the air used, which can be to help raise pH if the CO2 level in the air is appropriate for that.

IMO, #2 is a huge difference, and #3 is clearly important for many people.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I read this on algaescrubber.net, I trust and value your opinion and am curious if you find it true or false:

The easiest way to compare scrubbers to skimmers is to think about food. Food is "organic" and should not to be confused with human food "organic non-gmo food etc" that you eat.

Nutrients, However are "inorganic", and should not be confused with human food nutrients that you eat.

Scrubbers remove inorganics from the water: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, CO2, copper, etc, but do not remove food particles.

Scrubbers add organics to the water: Glucose, amino acids, vitamin C, etc. Oxygen and copepods too.

Protein skimmers, however, do the opposite. That's why they have the word "protein" in the name.

Skimmers remove food particles and copepods from the water, but do not remove ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, CO2, copper, etc.

Skimmers add oxygen to the water.

So the only thing in common is that scrubbers and skimmers both add oxygen to the water.

I don't disagree with most of that except that it limits the discussion to foods, whereas skimming to remove toxins (both natural from tank creatures and and made from materials we use) and other materials (yellowing compounds, excessive trace elements bound to organics, etc.) can be important.

I do think the author has a bias toward liking scrubbers by listing a set of organics that scrubbers might add that sounds somewhat desirable, instead of describing them in a less positive way, such as yellowing compounds, possible toxins from algae, etc.

It is incorrect to claim skimmers do not remove copper from an ordinary reef aquarium.

it is also incorrect to say skimmers remove CO2. They may add it, remove it, or do nothing, and may do different things in that regard at different tiems of the day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I should also note that skimmers remove whole organisms, such as bacteria. Whether that is desirable or not may depend on the other husbandry practices, but certainly is desirable in many contexts.

 

[Thales]

I wonder how many of the "anti-scrubbers" have actually TRIED one.

If you have tried one and it didn't work, that's one thing, and I can respect that. Two huge CUCs from reefcleaners as well as purchasing snails and crabs from LFSs didn't work for me, but you're not going to hear me say that it does straight up does not work, period.

However, if you've never tried one and you STILL knock it, well, that's another thing.

I'm williing to make a wager that most of you are in the latter group

I have. Twice. Though I am not really anti scrubber (and I think must aren’t), but you really don’t care right?

 

[ScubaSkeets]

....

 

[jason2459]

I should also note that skimmers remove whole organisms, such as bacteria. Whether that is desirable or not may depend on the other husbandry practices, but certainly is desirable in many contexts.

Unfortunately or fortunately, scrubbers do to when harvesting. Usually unseen but under the microscope the diversity of life living in a scrubber is impressive. With the naked eye I often can see some slime or detritus with the hair algae and I can see many types of *pods. That all gets ripped out with the algae being harvested.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

On a related topic, do those of you using ATS know what species of algae you have growing there in your system?

Is it hard to manage the type of algae growing, or is that not even a typical consideration?

 

[jason2459]

We may not all agree on the topic at hand, but I still consider myself the winner.

I still don't know what the argument is. It's either a Santa Monica commercial or a yeah harvesting algae can be good. Everyone seems to agree on that last part.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I often took macroalgae from my refugium to feed fish in my display.

Do any of you using ATS take your algae or even the whole screen and let fish eat off it?

Seems like a good plan to feed them if there is not much algae in the display.

 

[brandon429]

Why is it that for twelve years ats bandwagoning has ridden strong

but when I go into the nuisance algae forum to find actual work jobs on wrecked tanks, some are already using them to no avail, there’s no stickies about them actually correcting anything, and no current invasions are being fixed by installing them, and there’s still tons of help needed every day

if they work, why hasn’t rates of algae invasion dropped at all?

=this is a fad

 

[jason2459]

On a related topic, do those of you using ATS know what species of algae you have growing there in your system?

Is it hard to manage the type of algae growing, or is that not even a typical consideration?

I've noticed a few types of differences in the strands over time but I've not gotten into the taxonomy of it except for the obvious "hair algae" label. I have had ulva grow on mine before for a bit mixed in with the hair algae. I'll get some cyano at times. Otherwise I'm most interested in watching what lives on it. I love the ciliates the most and always like hunting for amoeba.

 

[brandon429]

someone that is an ats expert, you go into the nuisance algae forum and find a non ats tank asking for help with any invasion

link the thread here

show them how to fix the tank using an ats, we watch live time outbound work, that solves the matter. Refusing a live time job keeps the ploy up.

 

[jason2459]

someone that is an ats expert, you go into the nuisance algae forum and find a non ats tank asking for help with any invasion

link the thread here

show them how to fix the tank using an ats, we watch live time outbound work, that solves the matter. Refusing a live time job keeps the ploy up.

My favorite example of algae harvesting is @d2mini 's tumbling ball of chaeto.

 

[jason2459]

I often took macroalgae from my refugium to feed fish in my display.

Do any of you using ATS take your algae or even the whole screen and let fish eat off it?

Seems like a good plan to feed them if there is not much algae in the display.

I still have, to me, desirable amounts of mats of algae in my display. So I haven't done that in a long time. I do dip the screen in a few times to try and get some organisms off. Like this last time I had a large population of amphipods on mine.

 

[Garf]

someone that is an ats expert, you go into the nuisance algae forum and find a non ats tank asking for help with any invasion

link the thread here

show them how to fix the tank using an ats, we watch live time outbound work, that solves the matter. Refusing a live time job keeps the ploy up.

Even if that were to occur, the disappearance of the nuisance could easily be argued away as the tank maturing or developing herbivorous communities. It takes a few months for an ATS screen to mature and a lot can happen on its own in a tank in that time.

 

[jason2459]

?

=this is a fad

This entire hobby is built on a house of fads.

 

[mizimmer90]

I was hoping for more direct and practical answers.

Okay, heres something actionable: use a light for your ATS/refugium that is optimized for algae.

Not sure why this is controversial but here we are lol

 

[VintageReefer]

someone that is an ats expert, you go into the nuisance algae forum and find a non ats tank asking for help with any invasion

link the thread here

show them how to fix the tank using an ats, we watch live time outbound work, that solves the matter. Refusing a live time job keeps the ploy up.

someone that is an ats expert, you go into the nuisance algae forum and find a non ats tank asking for help with any invasion

link the thread here

show them how to fix the tank using an ats, we watch live time outbound work, that solves the matter. Refusing a live time job keeps the ploy up.

Brandon I respect all that you have done over the many years and the advancements you’ve made for the community with h2o2, and rip cleans.

I will offer this before and after and all I did was fix my scrubber which went offline due to a failed air pump.

I did zero water changes, added no cuc, I literally did nothing but replace the scrubber air pump. It took about 1 month for the algae to die off and 1 more month where random patches would appear then die off, and after that I have had no algae return and I started adding corals

I fully believe the scrubber naturally resolved my issues and have kept them from returning. I took my skimmer offline a year ago, and have not done any nutrient export aside from harvesting scrubber algae. I haven’t done a a water change in approximately 2.5 years. I don’t use gfo or any reactors, nor do I use algae products / chemicals

The rock is established and has been in use for 8-10 years and the sand for at least 8 years.

 

[d2mini]

My favorite example of algae harvesting is @d2mini 's tumbling ball of chaeto.

You're gonna make me cry. I miss that setup so much!