Alkalinity Dosing. Is there a Preferred Schedule?

[FrugalReefer]

I manually dose 2 part (ESV) just before the lights go on. Been doing this for a while now and I have no issues.

 

[FrugalReefer]

This tank is dosed once per day by hand. The proof is in the pudding.

I've seen this video. It's funny how she just dumps it into the sump.

 

[DanyL]

Definitely will look at them. Already saved the links. As I said, things are running good, but trying to look to the future as the tank progresses. Thanks for your formula.

Here‘s where I am today. Some of these guys are becoming weeds.

Your tank looks awesome

Give it a year or two and you’ll start seeing that dense acro forest all stick heads are talking about haha


I would also like to give my own opinion about using automated systems to control dosage.

While I’m naturally attracted to tech (it’s my bread and butter) and I do own GHL KHD, In this particular case I find automation as an additional, quite broad possible point of failure.

I would not argue that it works, and mostly works well.

But given the experience I have today by manually keeping my systems for as long as I do, I don’t see the added benefit.
I do however always consider if I need to add more complexity and wether it worth the added risk of doing so.

With this in mind, I laid out a few of the main concerns that lead me to my conclusion:
1. While there are some safety measures in place, they aren’t always kick in, and sometimes may need an adjustment.
2. It needs constant verification, because it can and will drift over time.
3. Not all reagents are made equal, and they will drift from batch to batch.
4. Bugs exist, and may occur even without touching the configuration - like the faulty update Reef-Factory pushed to their customers, which caused some tanks to crash.
5. User error - no matter how cautious we try to be, humans are the source of most errors, and where there is a button, at some point, there will also be a click, even if an unintentional one.
6. No Backup. Not for the configuration (which you should keep regardless) but for the hardware itself.

Something I learned over the years is that having a backup for equipment, at a certain point in time, is well worth the investment.
It doesn’t have to be the most expensive equipment, nor the smartest (actually, as dumb as your can find, usually the better).

However with this kind of system, you make yourself depended, because switching over to a regular dosing schedule would require trial and error, instead of a quick “switch and replace” that you’re really looking for in an emergency (especially if it needs to be done by someone else over the phone).

So to have a good backup for such a thing you’d usually need to keep:
- A backup brain + brick
- A backup dosing pump
- A backup tester and accessories
- Someone that is able to take care of the whole thing in case of an emergency.

I on the other hand just keep a simple, cheap dosing pump as a backup which is already configured to go online and can be adjusted remotely or easily explained over the phone when the need comes.

7. The regular old - Should I trust it?
It’s always lingering there.
State machines fail, software can crash, Mechanical things break, anything connected to the internet can be hacked (not even purposely), and yes, we all already have these failure points pretty much everywhere in our life, but we should weigh the benefit of having them on life support equipment, especially if it is not absolutely necessary.

 

[Miami Reef]

Dosing just at night would raise the PH a bit, or a bit more if Sodium Catbonate/Hydroxide is being used, and even more so with Kalk

Sodium hydroxide has the same pH boost as kalkwasser per unit of dKH added.

For example, adding 2dKH with kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) vs sodium hydroxide has the same pH boost.

 

[DanyL]

How much ml of sodium bicarbonate are you dosing to raise the tank Dkh in 0.1 ?

Since I don’t know the net volume of water I have in my system, I can’t realistically measure this without stopping my dosage for a while, which I’m not really willing to do.

But from a failure I had a couple of years ago where the pump stopped working for around 24 hours (very roughly, could be less, could be more) I know I had a drop of around 4.5dKh (again, roughly) when my daily dosage was at around 550ml.

It’s a very inaccurate and rough calculation but..

I dose once every hour, so based on this I dose 550ml / 24 = 22.9ml per hour.
4.5Dkh / 24 = 0.1785dKh would be my average consumption rate per hour.
So 0.1dKh in my tank would equal to 22.9 / 0.1785 * 0.1 = 12.8ml.

 

[DanyL]

Sodium hydroxide has the same pH boost as kalkwasser per unit of dKH added.

For example, adding 2dKH with kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) vs sodium hydroxide has the same pH boost.

You are correct.

Sodium carbonate would bind a single CO2 molecule, while both Sodium/Calcium Hydroxide would bind 2.

 

[Yanir34]

Since I don’t know the net volume of water I have in my system, I can’t realistically measure this without stopping my dosage for a while, which I’m not really willing to do.

But from a failure I had a couple of years ago where the pump stopped working for around 24 hours (very roughly, could be less, could be more) I know I had a drop of around 4.5dKh (again, roughly) when my daily dosage was at around 550ml.

It’s a very inaccurate and rough calculation but..

I dose once every hour, so based on this I dose 550ml / 24 = 22.9ml per hour.
4.5Dkh / 24 = 0.1785dKh would be my average consumption rate per hour.
So 0.1dKh in my tank would equal to 22.9 / 0.1785 * 0.1 = 12.8ml.

My tank is 10 months old its 211 gallons tank , populated mostly with SPS that started as frags .
I'm dosing 90 ml of sodium carbonat (it is concentrated liqiud) , 30 ml of calcium chloride and 10 ml of magnesium .dosing 500 ml of sodium carbonat each day is insane.
I also switched my lights from T5/LED hybrid to Only T5 , and I saw higher consumption of Alk , so I'm guessing that irs related to lightnings fixture.
Very important question: how are you dosing calcium and magnesium? do you make your own DIY solutions?

 

[DanyL]

My tank is 10 months old its 211 gallons tank , populated mostly with SPS that started as frags .
I'm dosing 90 ml of sodium carbonat (it is concentrated liqiud) , 30 ml of calcium chloride and 10 ml of magnesium .dosing 500 ml of sodium carbonat each day is insane.
I also switched my lights from T5/LED hybrid to Only T5 , and I saw higher consumption of Alk , so I'm guessing that irs related to lightnings fixture.
Very important question: how are you dosing calcium and magnesium? do you make your own DIY solutions?

Well, by your name and your tank params I assume you already know what light fixtures I use lol

Note that you’re using Sodium *Carbonate*, while I dose Sodium *Bicarbonate*, so my solution is saturated but the potency is limited by the low solubility of Bicarbonate.
I don’t know what concentration you’re using to compare between the two, but it’s very possible it is more potent.

And yes, I do make my own DIY calcium and Magnesium solutions.

My calcium supplement is made of 1,787.5 grams of Calcium Chloride per 4 liters of RODI, and I currently dose 100ml per day (it is 5 times more potent than the classic ratio of Alk-Cal in the balling method)

My magnesium supplement is made of 1.5kg of Magnesium Chloride and 900 grams of Magnesium Sulfate per 2 liters of RODI, and I’m not dosing it regularly - but only when my mg levels drop bellow ~1280 (usually once every 2 months, spread across a month with 60ml per day).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This tank is dosed once per day by hand. The proof is in the pudding.

Is it?

It’s proof once a day is ok for that system, but it not any indication of whether other dose timing schemes are better or worse, for that system or others.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How much ml of sodium bicarbonate are you dosing to raise the tank Dkh in 0.1 ?

That is easily calculated, if you know what the solution consists of.

Reef Chemistry Calculator

 

[Yanir34]

Well, by your name and your tank params I assume you already know what light fixtures I use lol

Note that you’re using Sodium *Carbonate*, while I dose Sodium *Bicarbonate*, so my solution is saturated but the potency is limited by the low solubility of Bicarbonate.
I don’t know what concentration you’re using to compare between the two, but it’s very possible it is more potent.

And yes, I do make my own DIY calcium and Magnesium solutions.

My calcium supplement is made of 1,787.5 grams of Calcium Chloride per 4 liters of RODI, and I currently dose 100ml per day (it is 5 times more potent than the classic ratio of Alk-Cal in the balling method)

My magnesium supplement is made of 1.5kg of Magnesium Chloride and 900 grams of Magnesium Sulfate per 2 liters of RODI, and I’m not dosing it regularly - but only when my mg levels drop bellow ~1280 (usually once every 2 months, spread across a month with 60ml per day).

is that Dany from Israel ?

 

[DanyL]

That is easily calculated, if you know what the solution consists of.

Reef Chemistry Calculator

Overall, yes it’s an easy calculation.

But without knowing the net water volume, and considering the variable amount of rocks, corals and equipment we have, you’ll get a very inaccurate estimate in result.

The correct to measure it in this particular situation is to either stop dosing or to increase the dosage by a certain amount and measuring the difference in between.

I would love to hear of any other methods you may know to get an accurate (or at least realistic) measurement without having the net volume though.

 

[DanyL]

is that Dany from Israel ?

Yup

I thought you already know it was me hehe

 

[Yanir34]

Yup

I thought you already know it was me hehe

Nice to know that there is Pro reefer here from Israel

 

[DanyL]

Nice to know that there is Pro reefer here from Israel

There are at least two of us lingering here

Seriously though, it’s better being here than to argue which Shinzel is better for cycling lol

 

[Yanir34]

There are at least two of us lingering here

Seriously though, it’s better being here than to argue which Shinzel is better for cycling lol

Haha you are so right !

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Overall, yes it’s an easy calculation.

But without knowing the net water volume, and considering the variable amount of rocks, corals and equipment we have, you’ll get a very inaccurate estimate in result.

The correct to measure it in this particular situation is to either stop dosing or to increase the dosage by a certain amount and measuring the difference in between.

I would love to hear of any other methods you may know to get an accurate (or at least realistic) measurement without having the net volume though.

IMO, estimated volume is adequately close for typical reefing needs. Certainly one can do experiments to get a better measurement, but I’m not sure the answer will be much better if hobby kits are used to evaluate an addition of some sort.

 

[Emerson]

I dose Alk between 8 PM and noon when my Ph is lower, Calcium between 4 PM and 6 PM. I don't worry about the hourly Alk swings, because I only test Alk every other day. I'm trying to keep the Ph swings from going to low overnight and any precipitation from having Alk and Ca go in at the same time. If I had data on Alk levels throughout the day, I suppose I'd consider which is more important, stable Ph or Alk. Truthfully, I don't think either swings so much that it matters if you're auto dosing.

 

[drtechno]

I guess a good basic question (get it? Basic? Alkalinity? pH? Yucka yucka) is what exactly is considered stable alkalinity?

How much of an alk swing is considered acceptable or “stable”?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I guess a good basic question (get it? Basic? Alkalinity? pH? Yucka yucka) is what exactly is considered stable alkalinity?

How much of an alk swing is considered acceptable or “stable”?

Many folks consider alk changes within 0.5 dKH to be adequately stable, but some others like a tighter ranges, and some do not worry as much about it. There’s no definitive answer.