Alkalinity Help

[J’s reefreturn]

Hello, I am a little stumped and starting to get frustrated with my new 40 AIO reef. I cannot seem to get my Alk levels to raise while I am dosing now 30ML a day in a reef with very very little life, I use the Red Sea foundation part B. To give some context: If I allow it, my tank will consume or magically use 1.5 to 2 dkh daily. I use the red sea test kit and then purchased the hannah to make sure I wasnt crazy. Both consistent with .2 DKH. Just for simple housekeeping, I do not have any coralline algae, no visible precipitation, disturb the sand bed often and no clumps, I start my water changes from the sump area of the AIO in order to suck up any detritus or buildup (nothing to date).
40 gallon AIO running for 5 months
25lbs carib sea life rock + 10lbs established live rock
20lbs carib sea aragonite live sand (special grade I think)
Run filter floss, carbon, UV sterilizer, tunze 9004 skimmer, refugium in left chamber, marine pure block in last chamber of the media basket for extra bio load (wanted to remove sand at one point but purchased fish and wimped out)
Lighting (not that it matters) 2 hydra 26hd's running AB+ spectrum at 70%
I do a 25% water change every 2 weeks to a month with red sea pro salt/RODI unit from BRS 0 TDS
My water perimeters:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0 - Cant seem to get this up no matter what I feed or do.
Phosphate 0 - Same issue as above (switched to dry food for the fish in order to try and get a reading or maintain a little bit, not yet worked that way)
Calcium - 420: Dose 6ML day and sometimes need to pull this back
Alkalinity - 7 to 7.5 Dosing 30ML a day (tank water volume is actually only 31 gallons
Magnesium - No dosing needed 1450
Inhabitants
GSP - I had one silver dollar size that I have on the back wall, has doubled in size clinging to the acrylic
*No Coralline
Two designer clowns
two shrimp
one hermit crab
Just introduced two days ago: 1" acon frag 1"candy cane, 2" bubble gum digi, 2"bubble tip rose anemone. All but the anemone seem to be doing fine with polyps visibly popping and color looking good. Anemone has eaten but might be given back to the LFS as I like but realize that this is an animal that needs its own tank or very specialized.
I have seen only one post that resembled my issue and the guy tore his tank down and restarted with some new rock, stopped carbon dosing, etc. At this point I can't imagine that is necessary for me and really would like to get this figured out in a more simple manner (wishful thinking). I do not carbon dose or do any chemical treatment, my chaeto in the fuge is not doing well at all because I have no waste for it to consume. I have dosed the brightwell aquatics chaeto grow when the nitrates were high and the chaeto was growing like a weed. The only thing that I can come up with is that the marine pur has taken on some de-nitrification bacteria such as in a deep sand bed or something and this is changing the chemistry? otherwise I am stumped. Just an FYI I did read Randy Holmes article on the reef chemistry relationship, great info but doesnt point me to an identifiable issue within my system from what I can tell? I took this tank slow, fishless cycle, did the whole world wide corals approach. I am patient and like to think my husbandry on point, really just want to deal with the normal issues that everyone else has, like algae, high nutrients, every so often a hitchhiker issue, but I fear this is my deck of cards......Please help

 

[ckalupa]

Sounds like the alk May be precipitating out. Is your sand bed turning hard? Add it slowly in a high flow area. 30ml of B is a lot to add in a low consumption tank. Red Sea is pretty concentrated stuff. The normal sounding calcium add supports this IMO. Or try a different alk test kit.

 

[J’s reefreturn]

Sounds like the alk May be precipitating out. Is your sand bed turning hard? Add it slowly in a high flow area. 30ml of B is a lot to add in a low consumption tank. Red Sea is pretty concentrated stuff. The normal sounding calcium add supports this IMO. Or try a different alk test kit.

It does not seem that any part of my sand bed is clumping.
But* let’s say that was the case and it was an issue, what would be the fix or mitigation here?

 

[Mykawl]

Not sure what your asking, can you post a FTS sounds like you have a decent amount of coral and a healthy reef tank can definitely consume 2 DKH a day.

Whatever your adding beyond that if I’m not mistaken will precipitate out without raising the calcium/magnesium in appropriate proportion.

How exactly are you adding the 30ml daily? Doser in a high flow area slow drip? Or concentrate all at once?

That’s a decent amount of rock you have too not sure if that has anything to do with it.

Lastly why do you want to raise it? If it’s stable at 7-7.5 that should be good

 

[Joedubyk]

Not sure what your asking, can you post a FTS sounds like you have a decent amount of coral and a healthy reef tank can definitely consume 2 DKH a day.

Whatever your adding beyond that if I’m not mistaken will precipitate out without raising the calcium/magnesium in appropriate proportion.

How exactly are you adding the 30ml daily? Doser in a high flow area slow drip? Or concentrate all at once?

That’s a decent amount of rock you have too not sure if that has anything to do with it.

Lastly why do you want to raise it? If it’s stable at 7-7.5 that should be good

I don't know, something is off here. He's consuming a lot of alk and almost no calcium. And 2 dkh is a lot for what he has. Unless it's grown out or something.

 

[Mykawl]

I don't know, something is off here. He's consuming a lot of alk and almost no calcium. And 2 dkh is a lot for what he has. Unless it's grown out or something.

I see, they are normally dosed in equal proportions? Seems like precipitation from not adding correctly (slowly throughout the night) alternate calcium (through the day) and make sure 30 min between switching dosing. If I’m not mistaken this is how most do it.

Another concern is 0 nitrate / phosphate are you using gfo? Take it out if so for a week get some detectable phosphate probably why the anemones are unhappy else lighting. Does the Chaeto die without supplementing? Low bioload looks like

 

[J’s reefreturn]

Not sure what your asking, can you post a FTS sounds like you have a decent amount of coral and a healthy reef tank can definitely consume 2 DKH a day.

Whatever your adding beyond that if I’m not mistaken will precipitate out without raising the calcium/magnesium in appropriate proportion.

How exactly are you adding the 30ml daily? Doser in a high flow area slow drip? Or concentrate all at once?

That’s a decent amount of rock you have too not sure if that has anything to do with it.

Lastly why do you want to raise it? If it’s stable at 7-7.5 that should be good

Sorry, what is FTS?
I dose with several Kamoara X1’s connected. Dose schedule below:

The dosing pump feeds in to the return pump area in the back of the AIO (sump) There is a fairly high amount of flow- I use two innovative marine mighty jet DC pumps at their lowest setting (total 500gph) and can see the cloudy water after dosing alkalinity.
I don’t wait 1/2hr but I do wait 15min between doses. I guess I have to disclose that I just purchased those dosing pumps and prior to adding these small coral frags I would drip in to the power head in the display area at night and in the morning. Had the issue then and still having now.
As far as GFO, don’t touch the stuff. The tank has a skimmer and a little bit of reef spec carbon. I will upload some photos.

 

[J’s reefreturn]

I don't know, something is off here. He's consuming a lot of alk and almost no calcium. And 2 dkh is a lot for what he has. Unless it's grown out or something.

Joe, that is my thinking and yes the coral are tiny frags just added. I would love to tell you growth has been outstanding but this is day 3 with corals and has been an ongoing issue without coral.

 

[J’s reefreturn]

Not sure what your asking, can you post a FTS sounds like you have a decent amount of coral and a healthy reef tank can definitely consume 2 DKH a day.

Whatever your adding beyond that if I’m not mistaken will precipitate out without raising the calcium/magnesium in appropriate proportion.

How exactly are you adding the 30ml daily? Doser in a high flow area slow drip? Or concentrate all at once?

That’s a decent amount of rock you have too not sure if that has anything to do with it.

Lastly why do you want to raise it? If it’s stable at 7-7.5 that should be good

I didn’t answer the last question:
It’s not that I want to raise my alkalinity past 7.5 or even 7 being how low the nutrients are, it is simply that I burn through so much alkalinity which fluctuates the chemistry of the tank so drastically. Example:
Did water change 25% with Red Sea pro salt
Calcium - 430, alk 8.0, mag 1450
By night time 5-6hrs Alk was 7.5 by morning 7 by mid afternoon 6 something.
Stability and the fact that calcium not being consumed while alkalinity is being depleted like free waffles at LoLos is what I need to fix.
Thank you for taking time to answer questions and read through this. I really want to be a responsible reef owner not kill anything.

 

[J’s reefreturn]

Here are some photos

 

[Mykawl]

Is that painted rock?

 

[BeejReef]

Fantastic questions.. You're really on top of it.

The way you describe it, in my very humble opinion, there is no possible way your tank is consuming 2dkh per day in alkalinity.

There's a great BRS Video on the alkalinity feedback loop and how to get out of it.

That salt you're using is very high in both elements. I know you're not seeing precipitation, but all that stuff is going somewhere.

 

[Iván Olalla]

+1 on precipitation or cristalization of alk, also you´re not far from balanced numbers, but with 420 ca the ionic kh balance is 8. For your target numbers of 7/7.5 the ca level is around 410.
Also low nutrients, the nitrate uses some alk during it´s exchange to nitrogen, and then releases it back to the tank, but if you do water changes you also export that alk

Water changes with adjusted values can help you balance the system and from taht point test consumption and add acordingly, a balanced all in one method for ca and kh in the cheap is kalkwasser

As for nutrients turn off your skimmer during the day and prune your macros, along with feeding should help you bringing up those numbers before adding manually

 

[J’s reefreturn]

Is that painted rock?

Yeah, Carib sea life rock and two pieces of established rock

 

[gminton86]

what's your PH in all that I either missed the PH or you didn't include it.

 

[J’s reefreturn]

what's your PH in all that I either missed the PH or you didn't include it.

I have not chased PH, need to grab a Hannah and start

 

[Mykawl]

I think that BRS video has the answer : P interesting stuff but also not sure how important this is but I think when using 2 part you dose the calcium during the day and alkalinity at night

 

[MexiReefer]

I have exactly the same problem. 5 month old reef. A couple of frags, 10% weekly water changes and the Alk sticks below 6.9 and keeps dropping to 6, until next water change.

My sand does get clumps, so probably is in fact precipitating. Did you found out what was happening in your tank?

 

[J’s reefreturn]

Hi maxi,
I have not yet conquered the issue, still the same. Based on the info given I am going to make a last effort to stop dosing while testing actual usage. Some things in this process are complicated but I recommend you read Randy Holmes article on reef chemistry, it’s a bit tough to follow but if you take the time it is broken down well.
Step 1 - stop dosing 24hrs
Step 2 test levels, if magnesium is low you will need to correct this issue (mag breaks down precipitation)
Step 3- dose the calculated amount of alkalinity based on usage in that period
Step 4. Right after the dose (10min) test alkalinity
Repeat the test and dose process for a week to get an accurate usage of the system.

One thing that I did was remove a block of marine pur I had used as a passive denitrification medium. I don’t know if this is true or not but mentioned in other forums several times that ultra low nutrient systems with denitrification have this tendency because of the bacterial process counteracting the chemical process of raising alkalinity.
Anyone who has comment on this please feel free, this is an issue that I have never dealt with and my local LFS’s (which are pretty good in the Bay Area) have no clue either.
Maxi - if you want to wait through this weekend I will let you know how this goes so you can hear results before taking advice I am really unsure of.

 

[J’s reefreturn]

I have exactly the same problem. 5 month old reef. A couple of frags, 10% weekly water changes and the Alk sticks below 6.9 and keeps dropping to 6, until next water change.

My sand does get clumps, so probably is in fact precipitating. Did you found out what was happening in your tank?

Sorry I read your message wrong, the clumps are probably your answer. That is great news! Now you can address with confidence, ensure mag levels are appropriate 1350-1450 ensure your dose is done in a high flow area and not ever mixing with calcium (dose on opposite schedules if possible)