All Acroporas gone - Suddenly

[XNavyDiver]

Hey buddy I see you're investing a lot of time, heart and money into this. I don't really have any advice other than my own personal experience and that I have a hard time keeping SPS in a 45 gallon tank. Generally when I tell people what my tank size is, they comment it's really hard to keep SPS in a small tank as stuff can change and go wrong quick. I can't imagine trying to keep things stable in a 17 gallon tank where you can sneeze and change your parameters. I think you gotta give yourself a little credit and a pat on the back that you're actually trying to do something that's incredibly difficult with very little margin of error. Don't let it get your spirits to down. You have a super cool tank and great equipment. Maybe focus on what you're having success with now and take a break with the things that are causing you heartache to take stock and figure out the best way to move forward.

Hear Hear! Well said. I'm struggling with sps in my 100g. I can't even imagine trying a 17g.

 

[914joe]

We all suffer from reef insanity where the same mistakes are repeated I love my 30g frag tank... It's a popular size and they are cheap.

 

[BoomCorals]

Here my alk went from 7.5 to 8.91 because I have to constantly change my DOSing since I have coral coming and going. I didn't lose a single frag, not even the super sensitive ones. 1 dkh in a day really is ok.

I think it's the combination of alk up and zero phosphate.

My phosphate was .06 in the upswing pictured below.

 

[Mattrg02]

I don't get why my phosphates drop to zero so fast. My best guess is that I don't have a sandbed to keep detritus in. Back when I did very little in this size tank, I had a sandbed. I just hate them, so dirty and difficult.

My Hanna meter will show 0 phosphates 6 hours after I dose it to 0.03ppm. I used to just dose some once a week. The more I dose, the worse this brown film gets, so I'm guessing that it is draining out the phosphates?

I guess I could stop sucking the detritus out during water changes? Scrape the brown film, let it die in, release back the phosphates?

 

[XNavyDiver]

Here my alk went from 7.5 to 8.91 because I have to constantly change my DOSing since I have coral coming and going. I didn't lose a single frag, not even the super sensitive ones. 1 dkh in a day really is ok.

I think it's the combination of alk up and zero phosphate.

My phosphate was .06 in the upswing pictured below.

How is your Apex monitoring alk? Are you one of the testers for the Trident?

 

[Battlecorals Verified Sponsor]

It's not your alk. A swing of one dkh in a day or two isn't uncommon nor will it cause issue. If you checked alk every 3 hours 24/7 you'd be surprised how much it fluctuates.

I’m with Matt at boom as well

Alk issues aren’t usually quite so sudden like you experienced. Granted alk swings can cause all sorts of issues, I suspect it may be closer related to the phosphate and buffer dosing. Something got out of whack for sure. I think a small skimmer, a simple ato, a reliable heater, and a weekly or bi weekly WC is as far as I'd go with a system this size with a handful of frags in it. Curious, and sorry if i missed it but were you only dosing the buffer, and not a two part solution? When alk and calcium are not balanced, things can get out of whack.

Your alk and calcium should be as close to balanced as possible at all times meaning, that for any give amount of calcium in the system your alk is balanced to that. Here's a really handy calculator for determining balanced alk and calcium levels.


Reef Chemistry Calculator

To illustrate this in the screenshot below you can see that if your alk is 8.8, then you'd want calcium as close to 423 as possible. This is a really important relationship to understand and this tool makes it easier. Essentially you want to keep alk and calcium levels as balanced as possible at all time. Dosing exact amounts of two part will help maintain but may not always be exact, so you might have to adjust dosages from time to time. I have been using this calculator for many years myself.

 

[tripdad]

Hey Matt, glad you've decided to go back to just water changes. As said before, a small hang on back skimmer( where's a skilter when you need one), and good flow for oxygen exchange is super important in nano's also. There just is not a lot of water volume to hold oxygen so you need to keep pumping it in. Don't be afraid to keep it free of detritus or feed the fish and corals. Just make sure to remove the excess thru skimmer and W/C's. It is hard, but hey if it was easy would we even care to try? Let's face it, your sick, sick in the head, just like the rest of us "Reefers", but what a great disease to have!

 

[Mattrg02]

I’m with Matt at boom as well

Alk issues aren’t usually quite so sudden like you experienced. Granted alk swings can cause all sorts of issues, I suspect it may be closer related to the phosphate and buffer dosing. Something got out of whack for sure. I think a small skimmer, a simple ato, a reliable heater, and a weekly or bi weekly WC is as far as I'd go with a system this size with a handful of frags in it. Curious, and sorry if i missed it but were you only dosing the buffer, and not a two part solution? When alk and calcium are not balanced, things can get out of whack.

Your alk and calcium should be as close to balanced as possible at all times meaning, that for any give amount of calcium in the system your alk is balanced to that. Here's a really handy calculator for determining balanced alk and calcium levels.


Reef Chemistry Calculator

To illustrate this in the screenshot below you can see that if your alk is 8.8, then you'd want calcium as close to 423 as possible. This is a really important relationship to understand and this tool makes it easier. Essentially you want to keep alk and calcium levels as balanced as possible at all time. Dosing exact amounts of two part will help maintain but may not always be exact, so you might have to adjust dosages from time to time. I have been using this calculator for many years myself.

I wasn't dosing calcium, it never seems to drop. Stays at 460ppm, testing once per week (before a water change). Magnesium also stays high at 1450ppm, doesn't change.

For what it's worth, none of these frags started their stn from the base, it started near the tips or somewhere in the body of the frag. The last to go was a WD frag, started from the tip. I fragged this last night and see that it's still there this morning, so maybe I'll get lucky?

What would be a minimum total water volume to go with? The Red Sea reefer 170 is 43 total gallons, but I could probably swap the sump out with this 17g tank and get it to about 50g total water.

I could keep the same footprint and just swap my hydra26hd out for the 52hd.

 

[Battlecorals Verified Sponsor]

I wasn't dosing calcium, it never seems to drop. Stays at 460ppm, testing once per week (before a water change). Magnesium also stays high at 1450ppm, doesn't change.

For what it's worth, none of these frags started their stn from the base, it started near the tips or somewhere in the body of the frag. The last to go was a WD frag, started from the tip. I fragged this last night and see that it's still there this morning, so maybe I'll get lucky?

What would be a minimum total water volume to go with? The Red Sea reefer 170 is 43 total gallons, but I could probably swap the sump out with this 17g tank and get it to about 50g total water.

I could keep the same footprint and just swap my hydra26hd out for the 52hd.

Yeah I really think there was a ionic imbalance at play.


Those buffer solutions aren't really ideal as a supplement in that regard, and throwing that calcium/alk relationship off was at least one of punches I’m sure

Truth is we’ll never know exactly what and why, but clearly your learning a good deal from this one. Which is the silver lining to issues like this and will only help your future efforts

I think at 50 gallons you will have a better chance at succes as well. But the more simple the set up the better in my opinion



EDIT: I meant to type aren't really ideal as in this buffer solutions are not ideal supplements as compared to a Two part solution. sorry for any confusion

 

[Flippers4pups]

Adding alkalinity solution or any solution to adjust water pramameters in a small system must be added very, very, very slowly to a high flow area. Even breaking up a dose into several or drip, which I recommend.

Dripping a dose into a sump is best because it can disperse the solution before it can be exposed to a coral more effectively. Dilution is key! Reducing pramameter shock.

 

[Mattrg02]

Adding alkalinity solution or any solution to adjust water pramameters in a small system must be added very, very, very slowly to a high flow area. Even breaking up a dose into several or drip, which I recommend.

Dripping a dose into a sump is best because it can disperse the solution before it can be exposed to a coral more effectively. Dilution is key! Reducing pramameter shock.

Never thought of that. I wonder if the corals were getting hit by the solution? I just squirt it right into the high flow area, but in a tank this size, it's instantly in the corals faces.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Never thought of that. I wonder if the corals were getting hit by the solution? I just squirt it right into the high flow area, but in a tank this size, it's instantly in the corals faces.

Localized pramameter shock is possible. Can cause “burns”.

Adding powdered buffer directly to the water is worse. Always in solution, never in powder form. I know you didn’t do this.

 

[JOKER]

My recommendation would be more frequent smaller water changes!! Less shock with smaller water changes. I have a 200 total gallon system. My first frags were acros after only 4 months, but my rock had been in water for several months prior to the tank start. I have my system automated to change 2 gallons a day every day, and I have the ability to change up to 50 gallons a day if needed. The simpler you keep it the better off, and more likely you are to do it. I have around 40 frags and small colonies in the tank, and I dose about 4 ml of 2 part a day.

 

[Mattrg02]

My recommendation would be more frequent smaller water changes!! Less shock with smaller water changes. I have a 200 total gallon system. My first frags were acros after only 4 months, but my rock had been in water for several months prior to the tank start. I have my system automated to change 2 gallons a day every day, and I have the ability to change up to 50 gallons a day if needed. The simpler you keep it the better off, and more likely you are to do it. I have around 40 frags and small colonies in the tank, and I dose about 4 ml of 2 part a day.

I'll have to setup one of those systems one day. For now, I'll do several small changes per week.

 

[Vaughn17]

Try a Salifert PO4 test kit, Matt.

 

[Mattrg02]

Try a Salifert PO4 test kit, Matt.

I was looking at getting one. How do you like it? I always suspect that my Hanna gives zero readings because I didn't clean the vial well enough.

 

[Vaughn17]

I don't like the Hanna meter. I could never get the reagent to dissolve in the allotted time and then there is the bubble issue. I've had good luck with Salifert's test kits, including the PO4 one. IMO, I've lost more acros from low PO4 and NO3 than anything else. Also, I agree with others that well feed acros are bothered much by Alk swings.

 

[Battlecorals Verified Sponsor]

I don't like the Hanna meter. I could never get the reagent to dissolve in the allotted time and then there is the bubble issue. I've had good luck with Salifert's test kits, including the PO4 one. IMO, I've lost more acros from low PO4 and NO3 than anything else. Also, I agree with others that well feed acros are bothered much by Alk swings.

I’m totally with you on that one. Although I think the low range phosphorus meter seems a little better than my older phosphate one though to be fair.

I don’t know if I ever got a good reading with the phosphate checker. Just wasn’t consistent.

 

[Mattrg02]

Here's something I thought about: Let's say I've got my nitrates and phosphates straight. If something else is amiss, might that keep the acros from feeding? I'm thinking along the lines of trying to target feed an acro without any polyps extension. My montiporas seem to be very happy. They are growing and extending polyps nicely. The acros are the ones that have bit the dust here. Maybe something else isn't right and they aren't taking up nitrates and phosphates, thus starving.

 

[Vaughn17]

I don't like the Hanna meter. I could never get the reagent to dissolve in the allotted time and then there is the bubble issue. I've had good luck with Salifert's test kits, including the PO4 one. IMO, I've lost more acros from low PO4 and NO3 than anything else. Also, I agree with others that well feed acros are bothered much by ALK swings.

Here's something I thought about: Let's say I've got my nitrates and phosphates straight. If something else is amiss, might that keep the acros from feeding? I'm thinking along the lines of trying to target feed an acro without any polyps extension. My montiporas seem to be very happy. They are growing and extending polyps nicely. The acros are the ones that have bit the dust here. Maybe something else isn't right and they aren't taking up nitrates and phosphates, thus starving.

So your monties are happy. IMO, montipora and acros both need good water quality. Monties, however, will tolerate much lower lighting than acros. AND, IMO, if you're running high nutrients with acros, you need higher lighting. I run my Photons at 100 percent on the blue and UV channels and 94 percent on the white channel for eight hours each day (in addition to four hours of blue ramping up and down). And they're only nine inches above my 180. Also, PC Rainbow loves high nutrients and will tolerate lower lighting, IMO.